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Needed: serious game programmers

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  • dartsmandartsman Member Posts: 88
    : Yes that was exactly what I meant. Version Control.
    : Another issue would be, do we all edit the same code OR all code it ourselves, but share our knowledge as we go along?
    :
    : Jon.

    That's a good point. It would be good if we were doing both. Cause then we could be making our own version of the game plus having the one that we made all together. What compiler are we going to use? We will have to take into consideration who has what and that type of stuff. I have Dev-C++ 4.0 (Sucks but has good IDE), but I also have Turbo C (good all round). I don't think that it would be fair if we used MS VC++ cause I don't have it (unless if you want to give it to me (joke)) and if we are going to make it open source than more people can also use it. I am saving up for it but I'm way off (only have about $100).

    We should do a 2D version then maybe work on a 3D version. Unless if someone learns how to do a 3D version then if he wants to tell all the rest of us how to do so then I am willing to learn.

    I asked a guy that I know at school about Music 2000 that he has and he said that he would do it for free!(just put his name in the credits). He says that he can do medievel or whatever music. He can make them MP3's, we might want them as WAV files instead. What do you think?

    Has anyone made a game before?(Graphics) If so what type, how did you program it and anything else you would like to add.

    I have been thinking about the game. What do you think the setting should be? I would think that we could either go for the norm (Medievel) or we could go for something weird (Sci-Fi, Modern, Space, etc.). Tell me what you think.

    Are we going to have a whole lot of .h files and only one .c file?

    I would like to have it that you just go around and fight people, like you just run into them and then hack into them.

    If you have played Dinisty Warriors 3 (I think (Playstation 2)) you most probibly would of liked it. The first time I played it, it took my breath away. I would like to see our game head towards it. I fyou don't know what I am talking about I will tell you about it. You first pick who you want to be, then it loads (takes a long time), then once you get into the battle scene you just start of with all your guys (blue guys) and they start running. You are like in the middle of a hugh war. All you do is just hack into all the red guys (enemies) and then to top it all of (I only played the demo) the guy I was using had a hugh battle axe. He had a set of moves that he had and one was a spin, he would gain energy then spin. It would make all the red guys fly away and would give you some room. The think that was fun is at the start one of your guys is on a horse, he gets thrown of then if you want you can jump on the back of this horse. You can ride it around and run into people and then they would fly away. The thing that was fun is all the blue guys would fight against the red guys and then you could defend the blue guys by killing the red guys. Another thing is you have a bow (hehe), when you go to shoot it the view goes into a first person view and you can just start taking out the enemy. The setting is ninja/medievel and isn't much of a RPG. The whole game is 3D, there would be a lot of masking but you would only have to change the uniform that the guys were wearing and only really have to mask about 10 characters (main characters). The view is top/3rd person view untill you use the bow. There is about 10 characters to pick from. They each have different weapons.

    If we were going to make something like this then we should make a 2D version, but when you kill each bad guy you would gain exp. and then at the end you could buy a new weapon/shield/etc.

    Another good idea would be one like Baulders Gate: Dark Alliance (DA). That was a very long game that takes a long time to finish. It keeped me interested in it by introducing new enemies all the time. At the start there is the sewer rats, then wolves, then monkeys, then other creatures, then you would fight a boss every once and a while. DA has a great view and you can rotate the view whenever.

    I would love to make it from C/C++, not from OpenGL.
    I know that it is easy to use OpenGL, but that is just using someone else's stuff. Wouldn't it be cool if we made our own set of functions that would do all the stuff that we want (and more). I know that it would be harder but then we would all of upgraded all of our skills.

    Who is going to do the art. Are we going to make it a tiled map or mask it in the 3D version?
    Is the map going to be loaded or as a int array[][];?
    We have to do a save game, how should we do that?
    We need to have a cool loking menu, has anyone made a cool menu(2D/3D)?
    Would we add the level editor to the game (like StarCraft)?
    In the credits do you want to have our pictures (scan them then add them) in it or as special characters for once they have finished?
    What weapons should we have?
    What is the time(Medievel, Sci-Fi, Space)?
    Once we get the time, then all will be able to be worked on.
    Does anyone want an intro to this game?

    Should we have a logo?
    What would the logo have on it?
    How's 'Global Programming' sound?
    Does anyone have an idea for the logo?

    If any of us pull out I thnk if they have put any little bit of work into it we should put them in the credits. Just to show that we respect them and to show that they did do something?

    What level are we all on?
    We will all have to be on the same level.
    Since we are in a team I think that if one of us doesn't understand a bit of code we should all try and help them. So that when we all finish we can all use this experience and have learned something and taught something. Plus image if you were that person (it will most probibly be me first, I think!) how would you feel if you didn't understand just one bit of code and then everyone just doesn't tell you, then everyone would of learned a lot and you would of not learnt what you came to learn from this experience.

    I am at beginner level. I know C/C++ ok but only at beginner level. I have been learning for 7 months now.

    Dartsman

    Ps: sorry about all the spelling mistakes!
  • gautamgautam Member Posts: 642
    Hi,

    Ok. Although I won't be getting involved with your game as I have my own games/projects to finish let me point out a few things

    Furstly Dev-C++ is not a compiler -its just an IDE it uses gnu compilers. As I am a fan of the gnu software I am a little biased to them as it cuts down my development cost to literally "0 + labour_hours" only which is very good for a student in my opinion. On the other hand you don't seem to be aware of borland which also gives its compiler(borland C++ builder) free. Only drawback - NO IDE but that is compensated by V IDE which is again free and works very well with the borland compiler.

    Music - even you can do music - get a keyboard or something and start playing weird sound - edit it using software - do some trial and error -probably isn't the best way to do it but in the end it will help you learn.

    You will end up having a lot of .h and .c files. Putting everything in one .c file is disaster. You will rarely see any proper application having only 1 .c file unless its very small.

    Ok, you seem to be having the misconeption of "opengl makes games". All it does is a few things for you. On the other hand it does nothing at all except guarantee you that it will run on a wide variety of hardware and give you some simple buidling blocks which will be necessary. The bottom line "only opengl will not make your game" . Now coming to C/C++ - ANSI C/C++ doesn't give you graphics routines etc -bgi, gdi etc are not ANSI, they are outside libraries which eventually you will end up using.

    Ok, Lets take an example of a game(sound and music part) without using API's like direct sound. Now would you be able to write drivers for the so many sound cards out there ?? Definitely not even though I am sure you would love to.

    Ok, now before you go programming a game you need to look at it from 2 views - anyway thats how I prefer to look at :- 1. The programmers view. 2. The players view. How you view them are upto you.

    As my first games were on the console like atari, SNES and kind I like to look at playability rather than graphics. I want the game to be efficient - i.e there shouldn't be lags and kind.

    Are you implying that Level Editor first came in starcraft ?? Why do I have the feeling that it came much more before - hell that too I saw it in console game. Well maybe that was the first time I saw it - 1996 and it was actually fun to make my own levels and kind and play - hehe.

    Whats Global programming ??
    Do you mean Global programming -> using global variables.

    Try as much as possible to eliminate globals or use it in such a way that it doesn't conflict with others global variables. This is a very big hindrance in a group. If its an induvidual program its easy to get away with a global. Sometimes a global might just be required - well then you have to a lot more careful.

    Regarding what levels are you all on - all of you can't become experts after just one application. It takes time to become competent enough leave alone becoming an expert. Some of you might be competent enough, but as you write your first application you will find out how much you know and how much you don't and trust me as you write more applications you will find out how less you know.

    Regarding sharing of knowledge :- There are lots of game programmers on this board itslef of varying ages and they just love sharing their knowledge.


    : : Yes that was exactly what I meant. Version Control.
    : : Another issue would be, do we all edit the same code OR all code it ourselves, but share our knowledge as we go along?
    : :
    : : Jon.
    :
    : That's a good point. It would be good if we were doing both. Cause then we could be making our own version of the game plus having the one that we made all together. What compiler are we going to use? We will have to take into consideration who has what and that type of stuff. I have Dev-C++ 4.0 (Sucks but has good IDE), but I also have Turbo C (good all round). I don't think that it would be fair if we used MS VC++ cause I don't have it (unless if you want to give it to me (joke)) and if we are going to make it open source than more people can also use it. I am saving up for it but I'm way off (only have about $100).
    :
    : We should do a 2D version then maybe work on a 3D version. Unless if someone learns how to do a 3D version then if he wants to tell all the rest of us how to do so then I am willing to learn.
    :
    : I asked a guy that I know at school about Music 2000 that he has and he said that he would do it for free!(just put his name in the credits). He says that he can do medievel or whatever music. He can make them MP3's, we might want them as WAV files instead. What do you think?
    :
    : Has anyone made a game before?(Graphics) If so what type, how did you program it and anything else you would like to add.
    :
    : I have been thinking about the game. What do you think the setting should be? I would think that we could either go for the norm (Medievel) or we could go for something weird (Sci-Fi, Modern, Space, etc.). Tell me what you think.
    :
    : Are we going to have a whole lot of .h files and only one .c file?
    :
    : I would like to have it that you just go around and fight people, like you just run into them and then hack into them.
    :
    : If you have played Dinisty Warriors 3 (I think (Playstation 2)) you most probibly would of liked it. The first time I played it, it took my breath away. I would like to see our game head towards it. I fyou don't know what I am talking about I will tell you about it. You first pick who you want to be, then it loads (takes a long time), then once you get into the battle scene you just start of with all your guys (blue guys) and they start running. You are like in the middle of a hugh war. All you do is just hack into all the red guys (enemies) and then to top it all of (I only played the demo) the guy I was using had a hugh battle axe. He had a set of moves that he had and one was a spin, he would gain energy then spin. It would make all the red guys fly away and would give you some room. The think that was fun is at the start one of your guys is on a horse, he gets thrown of then if you want you can jump on the back of this horse. You can ride it around and run into people and then they would fly away. The thing that was fun is all the blue guys would fight against the red guys and then you could defend the blue guys by killing the red guys. Another thing is you have a bow (hehe), when you go to shoot it the view goes into a first person view and you can just start taking out the enemy. The setting is ninja/medievel and isn't much of a RPG. The whole game is 3D, there would be a lot of masking but you would only have to change the uniform that the guys were wearing and only really have to mask about 10 characters (main characters). The view is top/3rd person view untill you use the bow. There is about 10 characters to pick from. They each have different weapons.
    :
    : If we were going to make something like this then we should make a 2D version, but when you kill each bad guy you would gain exp. and then at the end you could buy a new weapon/shield/etc.
    :
    : Another good idea would be one like Baulders Gate: Dark Alliance (DA). That was a very long game that takes a long time to finish. It keeped me interested in it by introducing new enemies all the time. At the start there is the sewer rats, then wolves, then monkeys, then other creatures, then you would fight a boss every once and a while. DA has a great view and you can rotate the view whenever.
    :
    : I would love to make it from C/C++, not from OpenGL.
    : I know that it is easy to use OpenGL, but that is just using someone else's stuff. Wouldn't it be cool if we made our own set of functions that would do all the stuff that we want (and more). I know that it would be harder but then we would all of upgraded all of our skills.
    :
    : Who is going to do the art. Are we going to make it a tiled map or mask it in the 3D version?
    : Is the map going to be loaded or as a int array[][];?
    : We have to do a save game, how should we do that?
    : We need to have a cool loking menu, has anyone made a cool menu(2D/3D)?
    : Would we add the level editor to the game (like StarCraft)?
    : In the credits do you want to have our pictures (scan them then add them) in it or as special characters for once they have finished?
    : What weapons should we have?
    : What is the time(Medievel, Sci-Fi, Space)?
    : Once we get the time, then all will be able to be worked on.
    : Does anyone want an intro to this game?
    :
    : Should we have a logo?
    : What would the logo have on it?
    : How's 'Global Programming' sound?
    : Does anyone have an idea for the logo?
    :
    : If any of us pull out I thnk if they have put any little bit of work into it we should put them in the credits. Just to show that we respect them and to show that they did do something?
    :
    : What level are we all on?
    : We will all have to be on the same level.
    : Since we are in a team I think that if one of us doesn't understand a bit of code we should all try and help them. So that when we all finish we can all use this experience and have learned something and taught something. Plus image if you were that person (it will most probibly be me first, I think!) how would you feel if you didn't understand just one bit of code and then everyone just doesn't tell you, then everyone would of learned a lot and you would of not learnt what you came to learn from this experience.
    :
    : I am at beginner level. I know C/C++ ok but only at beginner level. I have been learning for 7 months now.
    :
    : Dartsman
    :
    : Ps: sorry about all the spelling mistakes!
    :

  • dartsmandartsman Member Posts: 88
    Just had to point out some things that you might not of thought of when you were replying!

    : Hi,
    :
    : Ok. Although I won't be getting involved with your game as I have my own games/projects to finish let me point out a few things
    :
    : Furstly Dev-C++ is not a compiler -its just an IDE it uses gnu compilers. As I am a fan of the gnu software I am a little biased to them as it cuts down my development cost to literally "0 + labour_hours" only which is very good for a student in my opinion. On the other hand you don't seem to be aware of borland which also gives its compiler(borland C++ builder) free. Only drawback - NO IDE but that is compensated by V IDE which is again free and works very well with the borland compiler.

    I say Dev-C++ cause then most people know what I am talking about and then I don't have to remember what the compiler's name is!

    :
    : Music - even you can do music - get a keyboard or something and start playing weird sound - edit it using software - do some trial and error -probably isn't the best way to do it but in the end it will help you learn.

    My friend has said that he can do the music that we want for free! Why not use this to our advantage?

    :
    : You will end up having a lot of .h and .c files. Putting everything in one .c file is disaster. You will rarely see any proper application having only 1 .c file unless its very small.
    :
    : Ok, you seem to be having the misconeption of "opengl makes games". All it does is a few things for you. On the other hand it does nothing at all except guarantee you that it will run on a wide variety of hardware and give you some simple buidling blocks which will be necessary. The bottom line "only opengl will not make your game" . Now coming to C/C++ - ANSI C/C++ doesn't give you graphics routines etc -bgi, gdi etc are not ANSI, they are outside libraries which eventually you will end up using.
    :
    : Ok, Lets take an example of a game(sound and music part) without using API's like direct sound. Now would you be able to write drivers for the so many sound cards out there ?? Definitely not even though I am sure you would love to.
    :
    : Ok, now before you go programming a game you need to look at it from 2 views - anyway thats how I prefer to look at :- 1. The programmers view. 2. The players view. How you view them are upto you.
    :
    : As my first games were on the console like atari, SNES and kind I like to look at playability rather than graphics. I want the game to be efficient - i.e there shouldn't be lags and kind.
    :
    : Are you implying that Level Editor first came in starcraft ?? Why do I have the feeling that it came much more before - hell that too I saw it in console game. Well maybe that was the first time I saw it - 1996 and it was actually fun to make my own levels and kind and play - hehe.

    I was using StarCraft as an EXAMPLE! I know it wasn't the very first level editor, its just that most people know about starcraft and therefore they know what I am talking about!

    :
    : Whats Global programming ??
    : Do you mean Global programming -> using global variables.
    :
    : Try as much as possible to eliminate globals or use it in such a way that it doesn't conflict with others global variables. This is a very big hindrance in a group. If its an induvidual program its easy to get away with a global. Sometimes a global might just be required - well then you have to a lot more careful.
    :
    : Regarding what levels are you all on - all of you can't become experts after just one application. It takes time to become competent enough leave alone becoming an expert. Some of you might be competent enough, but as you write your first application you will find out how much you know and how much you don't and trust me as you write more applications you will find out how less you know.

    I just wanted to know so that if someone hasn't ever programmed in C/C++ then I/we might be able to help them! We might be able to give them some websites to check out or some code to look at!

    :
    : Regarding sharing of knowledge :- There are lots of game programmers on this board itslef of varying ages and they just love sharing their knowledge.

    There is no better way to learn how to program a game then to make one! Most people don't answer the posts that I put up and so it is better to get together with some people then to have to wait to get a reply from someone!

    :
    :
    : : : Yes that was exactly what I meant. Version Control.
    : : : Another issue would be, do we all edit the same code OR all code it ourselves, but share our knowledge as we go along?
    : : :
    : : : Jon.
    : :
    : : That's a good point. It would be good if we were doing both. Cause then we could be making our own version of the game plus having the one that we made all together. What compiler are we going to use? We will have to take into consideration who has what and that type of stuff. I have Dev-C++ 4.0 (Sucks but has good IDE), but I also have Turbo C (good all round). I don't think that it would be fair if we used MS VC++ cause I don't have it (unless if you want to give it to me (joke)) and if we are going to make it open source than more people can also use it. I am saving up for it but I'm way off (only have about $100).
    : :
    : : We should do a 2D version then maybe work on a 3D version. Unless if someone learns how to do a 3D version then if he wants to tell all the rest of us how to do so then I am willing to learn.
    : :
    : : I asked a guy that I know at school about Music 2000 that he has and he said that he would do it for free!(just put his name in the credits). He says that he can do medievel or whatever music. He can make them MP3's, we might want them as WAV files instead. What do you think?
    : :
    : : Has anyone made a game before?(Graphics) If so what type, how did you program it and anything else you would like to add.
    : :
    : : I have been thinking about the game. What do you think the setting should be? I would think that we could either go for the norm (Medievel) or we could go for something weird (Sci-Fi, Modern, Space, etc.). Tell me what you think.
    : :
    : : Are we going to have a whole lot of .h files and only one .c file?
    : :
    : : I would like to have it that you just go around and fight people, like you just run into them and then hack into them.
    : :
    : : If you have played Dinisty Warriors 3 (I think (Playstation 2)) you most probibly would of liked it. The first time I played it, it took my breath away. I would like to see our game head towards it. I fyou don't know what I am talking about I will tell you about it. You first pick who you want to be, then it loads (takes a long time), then once you get into the battle scene you just start of with all your guys (blue guys) and they start running. You are like in the middle of a hugh war. All you do is just hack into all the red guys (enemies) and then to top it all of (I only played the demo) the guy I was using had a hugh battle axe. He had a set of moves that he had and one was a spin, he would gain energy then spin. It would make all the red guys fly away and would give you some room. The think that was fun is at the start one of your guys is on a horse, he gets thrown of then if you want you can jump on the back of this horse. You can ride it around and run into people and then they would fly away. The thing that was fun is all the blue guys would fight against the red guys and then you could defend the blue guys by killing the red guys. Another thing is you have a bow (hehe), when you go to shoot it the view goes into a first person view and you can just start taking out the enemy. The setting is ninja/medievel and isn't much of a RPG. The whole game is 3D, there would be a lot of masking but you would only have to change the uniform that the guys were wearing and only really have to mask about 10 characters (main characters). The view is top/3rd person view untill you use the bow. There is about 10 characters to pick from. They each have different weapons.
    : :
    : : If we were going to make something like this then we should make a 2D version, but when you kill each bad guy you would gain exp. and then at the end you could buy a new weapon/shield/etc.
    : :
    : : Another good idea would be one like Baulders Gate: Dark Alliance (DA). That was a very long game that takes a long time to finish. It keeped me interested in it by introducing new enemies all the time. At the start there is the sewer rats, then wolves, then monkeys, then other creatures, then you would fight a boss every once and a while. DA has a great view and you can rotate the view whenever.
    : :
    : : I would love to make it from C/C++, not from OpenGL.
    : : I know that it is easy to use OpenGL, but that is just using someone else's stuff. Wouldn't it be cool if we made our own set of functions that would do all the stuff that we want (and more). I know that it would be harder but then we would all of upgraded all of our skills.
    : :
    : : Who is going to do the art. Are we going to make it a tiled map or mask it in the 3D version?
    : : Is the map going to be loaded or as a int array[][];?
    : : We have to do a save game, how should we do that?
    : : We need to have a cool loking menu, has anyone made a cool menu(2D/3D)?
    : : Would we add the level editor to the game (like StarCraft)?
    : : In the credits do you want to have our pictures (scan them then add them) in it or as special characters for once they have finished?
    : : What weapons should we have?
    : : What is the time(Medievel, Sci-Fi, Space)?
    : : Once we get the time, then all will be able to be worked on.
    : : Does anyone want an intro to this game?
    : :
    : : Should we have a logo?
    : : What would the logo have on it?
    : : How's 'Global Programming' sound?
    : : Does anyone have an idea for the logo?
    : :
    : : If any of us pull out I thnk if they have put any little bit of work into it we should put them in the credits. Just to show that we respect them and to show that they did do something?
    : :
    : : What level are we all on?
    : : We will all have to be on the same level.
    : : Since we are in a team I think that if one of us doesn't understand a bit of code we should all try and help them. So that when we all finish we can all use this experience and have learned something and taught something. Plus image if you were that person (it will most probibly be me first, I think!) how would you feel if you didn't understand just one bit of code and then everyone just doesn't tell you, then everyone would of learned a lot and you would of not learnt what you came to learn from this experience.
    : :
    : : I am at beginner level. I know C/C++ ok but only at beginner level. I have been learning for 7 months now.
    : :
    : : Dartsman
    : :
    : : Ps: sorry about all the spelling mistakes!
    : :
    :
    :

  • speedyprogramrspeedyprogramr Member Posts: 12
    Hey guys,
    I've emailed everyone, so do respond back, eh? see ya later...
  • stratyotisstratyotis Member Posts: 27
    : Hey guys,
    : I've emailed everyone, so do respond back, eh? see ya later...
    :


    is it too late to join this project? I dont have much experience in C/C++, yet I understand OOP concepts and know a lot about c. i know how to program video cards and can write ISR, which are very usefull when writing a game.
  • yobboyobbo Member Posts: 1
    hey I would like to join. I know dartsman and he told me about this. I have very little knowledge of game programming but I would like to join this project.
  • dartsmandartsman Member Posts: 88
    : hey I would like to join. I know dartsman and he told me about this. I have very little knowledge of game programming but I would like to join this project.
    :

    Hey this is my friend and he is at about the same level in programming as me. I taught him how to program. He is ok and this would really help him.

    I did say that I wanted to make a RPG but the more I think about it I would like to make a RTS instead.

  • netomnetom Member Posts: 15
    First of all, I wish warm welcome to STRATYOTIS and YOBBO, and all the best!
    I just want to adress few things that one of you posted to Gautam; first of all Gautam is very smart and has lots of experience (that could be seen from replies and knowledge he posted here), and because he alerady finished couple of games he could share some of his valuable experiences here (practices,tools, organization). The Conclusion - in the future you should try to avoid attacking on people that doesn't diserve that and want to help, even if they are not members of the team. After all, we are open team of game developers.
    Netom

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    NoName Project
    -Document Outline-

    Objective:
    Open source game project, freeware distribution

    1. Genre and Story

    1.1. Genre:
    FPS(RTS) and RPG mix

    1.2. Story:
    It should take place in the
    not-too-distant future. Like, OK, you start out in a ship
    or something and you crash into a planet and have to
    destroy the aliens that took you prisoner and take a ship
    to go back home...(Zell)

    Great thought, how about a RTS/RPG game.You start off with only 1 or 2 men
    and then you go out and forage for wood and food. You build up your
    village/city and then go out and explore around a land, and then build
    another place. We could make it like a globel and there are other tribes
    that you can go and fight. Then we could go a step further and then make
    more/different buildings as time goes by. Like Empire Earth, but you just
    keep building up on your old village/city.This would be a bit like Age of
    Empires, but would be more detailed. It would be a great game, we could even
    have it that when the user goes into fights the men that survive will gain
    there own experience along the way, it that sence it would be like a RPG...(dartsman)

    2. Technology

    2.1.Platform:
    -Win9x, Win2000, WinXP
    -DirectX,OpenGl
    -3D game with additional 2D screens, menus


    2.2.Developer Tools:
    2.2.1. Programming
    Tools: VC6++, Dev-C++(gnu), BorlandC++(V IDE)
    (Additional: DXSDK,Conv3DS)

    2.2.2. 3D Modeling and Texturing
    Tools: Anima8or

    2.2.3. Texture Creation
    Tools: Gimp

    2.2.4. Sounds and Music
    Tools: Eca Sound, Music2000

    3. People
    Free Contribution
    3.1. 3D Programmers
    3.2. 2D Programmers
    3.3. 3D Modelars and Texturers
    3.4. Texture Art Creators
    3.5. Musicians and Sound Creators
    3.6. Story Tellers

    4. Resources
    3.1. Documents
    3.2. Links
    http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/
    http://www.anim8or.com/main/index.html
    http://eca.cx/welcome.html
    http://www.gamasutra.com
    http://www.gamedev.com
    http://www.gamedev.net/reference/articles/article899.asp

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  • stratyotisstratyotis Member Posts: 27
    hi guys. i was just wondering when we will start coding. i was also thinking maybe we could write a zelda ripoff.
  • netomnetom Member Posts: 15
    : hi guys. i was just wondering when we will start coding. i was also thinking maybe we could write a zelda ripoff.
    :

    Zelda, it sounds familiar to me, remind me... You told in one of your old messages that you deal with vc programming, how do you stand with Windows programming in general?

    Netom
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