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C/C++ Is Too Hard?

SephirothSephiroth Fayetteville, NC, USAMember Posts: 1,035
I wanted to share with you the level of coding knowledge instructors now have to offer at colleges nation-wide. This angered me in so many ways it is insane. This is my friend on ICQ:
[code]
[CMF]-Sc(+)pE: next year i HAVE to take Visual Basic
[CMF]-Sc(+)pE: it's mandatory
[CMF]-Sc(+)pE: soooo *edited*
[CMF]-Sc(+)pE: they replaced the c++ class with VB
[CMF]-Sc(+)pE: they said they were replacing it because "C++ is outdated"
[CMF]-Sc(+)pE: thats wut they said when i was choosing classes
[/code]
Now I am not Bill Gates or anything, but Basic can NOT stand up to C++ in terms of overall performance. Correct me if I am wrong, but I am betting they went from a DOS C++ class to a Windoze VisualBasic class, not realizing that C++ can also compile for Windoze, whether it's visual or not. Just wanted to share this with my fellow coders who actually code and don't just point and click.

-[italic][b][red]S[/red][purple]e[/purple][blue]p[/blue][green]h[/green][red]i[/red][purple]r[/purple][blue]o[/blue][green]t[/green][red]h[/red][/b][/italic]
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Comments

  • elleryellery Member Posts: 1
    You know, I hate when people say "C++ offers better performance than VB". It's a stupid statement. By performance you mean what? Applications run faster? You develop applications faster? The user can do the task more efficiently? Faster? No! Performance, which comes from the ability of performing task, is always misused in our industry.

    Too different languages, each one with it's own purpose. I would be glad if they changed the c++ courses in my school and had vb only. Why? Not because of me, but because it's VERY hard for other students to see how these black&white (console) applications (which is what's mostly done in colleges), fittin in the whole computer programs picture.
  • SephirothSephiroth Fayetteville, NC, USAMember Posts: 1,035
    : You know, I hate when people say "C++ offers better performance than VB".

    Firstoff, VB can't do the stuff C++ can. Basic is a more primitive language than C++ or ASM, but it is very easy to learn. I learned on Atari Basic way back in the 80's. However, it is limited in whatit can and cannot do. Granted, there is more support for it now, but since it is a primitive language, you can NOT expect the same performance from it thatyou can from C/C++ or ASM. ASM is the best one I know of, even above C/C++. The big plus with Basic is how easy it is to code, whether visually or with notepad.

    : Too different languages, each one with it's own purpose. I would be glad if they changed the c++ courses in my school and had vb only. Why? Not because of me, but because it's VERY hard for other students to see how these black&white (console) applications (which is what's mostly done in colleges), fittin in the whole computer programs picture.
    :

    You just re-stated my point. The college professors are not up to par. They are teaching C++, but console apps are obsolete for the most part. How hard would it be for an instructor to spend a day learning WinMain() and the VERY few things you need to learn to do Windoze C++? Instead they go the easy route, revert to a primitive language which can't do much, but the students will learn easily, and then on top of that they go to the "visual" version where the students don't even code much. It's sad when somebody like myself can actually do more in notepad than a college instructor can with visual .
    -[italic][b][red]S[/red][purple]e[/purple][blue]p[/blue][green]h[/green][red]i[/red][purple]r[/purple][blue]o[/blue][green]t[/green][red]h[/red][/b][/italic]

  • adrianxwadrianxw Member Posts: 127
    The performance issue is less of an issue these days. If a system needs 10x the power, well, so what really, the hardware companies are falling over each other to give us machines that programmers really can't use to their full potential, so along comes a VB programmer and knocks something together that works, does the job, and he did it in 2 days.

    Our system puts up the next screen in 1 millisecond, the VB system, in 100ms, so what? It is faster than the user can type.

    Time to market is the real issue these days, /for that kind of app/....

    There are all sorts of app....



    Med venlig hilsen,

    Adrian...

  • SephirothSephiroth Fayetteville, NC, USAMember Posts: 1,035
    True Adrian, but what about games? I am the only one I have met online thatcan run UT2K3 or Unreal II with max details in 1280x1024x32 and not have it ataround 1-5fps. In applications like word-processors, use whateverthe heck you want! When it comes to what REALLY stresses a CPU, like games or mega-server apps, use something that will give you the most bang for your buck. After all, who goes off and buys a Lamborghini and runs 87 octane in it?

    -[italic][b][red]S[/red][purple]e[/purple][blue]p[/blue][green]h[/green][red]i[/red][purple]r[/purple][blue]o[/blue][green]t[/green][red]h[/red][/b][/italic]

  • adrianxwadrianxw Member Posts: 127
    : True Adrian, but what about games? I am the only one I have met online thatcan run UT2K3 or Unreal II with max details in 1280x1024x32 and not have it ataround 1-5fps. In applications like word-processors, use whateverthe heck you want! When it comes to what REALLY stresses a CPU, like games or mega-server apps, use something that will give you the most bang for your buck. After all, who goes off and buys a Lamborghini and runs 87 octane in it?
    :
    : -[italic][b][red]S[/red][purple]e[/purple][blue]p[/blue][green]h[/green][red]i[/red][purple]r[/purple][blue]o[/blue][green]t[/green][red]h[/red][/b][/italic]
    :
    :

    I think you should read the last two line of my message again, /or/ read between them.....!

    (In case it's necessary - I am agreeing with you, but explaining why many education establishments turn to things like VB).

    P.S. Not here for next 7-8 days.


    Med venlig hilsen,

    Adrian...

  • SephirothSephiroth Fayetteville, NC, USAMember Posts: 1,035
    Yeah I know. It just really pizzes me off because to do really good games like the new ones out here now, you really do need to know C/C++ (possibly Pascal? *shudder*), and if I go to college and want to enhance my C/C++ skills, I'll be taught whatI learned back in the 80's, with the addition of Windoze functions to make the apps work in the OS. Also, it ticks me off to know that if Joe Blow goes to college for three months and gets a degree in Visual X, even though I can code with plain Notepad better than Joe, because all Joe knows how to do is point-and-click, and possibly type in fields in the IDE, he has a better shot at a job. My code may be twice as efficient, and can do twice as much, but because it may take me a day longer or because he has a better piece of paper (or a newer one), he wins the job.

    Anyways, be safe while you're gone. We should still be here when ya' get back, shy of nuclear fallout :p!

    -[italic][b][red]S[/red][purple]e[/purple][blue]p[/blue][green]h[/green][red]i[/red][purple]r[/purple][blue]o[/blue][green]t[/green][red]h[/red][/b][/italic]

  • veliusvelius Member Posts: 456
    Sephiroth,
    Nice name. Anyways I just decided to go to colledge and get a degree in Computer Science. The couse does not require you to take Viusal Basic. It offers it along with Java and Colbal and several other classes that are not stricly C/C++. Also the colledge I'm going to go to is the University of Akron. In Akron, Ohio. The courses I'm required to take include Datastructures and Algorithms I and II. There is also a class on operating systems and assembly classes too. These are required here. Visual Basic is not required. Thank the good lord for that. I hate Visual Basic. It is so limited in the things it can do. How do you create your own window border in VB? How to you get VB to run as quick as C++ or C or ASM? You can't. As for those with really fast computers like myself, I don't target machines like these. I target machines like my Father-in law's or my Mother's they have slower computers 200MHz to 350MHz. I also have a Pentium 100MHz and a 80486 DX2 based computer for such a purpose. VB cannot compete in terms of the 'performace' a program needs to be effective and compete on a older machine. If I go to click on a drop down menu I want to see it now not after 200 to 500 ms have passed by. VB just adds way too much overhead. I even use a 80486 based machine as a firewall running Linux. If I wanted to setup a proxy server I'd need NT so my server did not need to be super fast to keep up as a firewall plus all of the security software would be written with C or C++, otherwise it would not keep up with the demands of a server. I understand that most of the population is not as smart as it used to be. Hell that is why Visual Basic is so popular. People want to program and create a program now. Not in a week with C/C++. They also don't want to take the time to learn a powerful programming language, so they take the easy way out the Visual Basic way out. These are the people that love 'eye candy', the same kind of people that drool when the click there mouse. Anyways I'm done ranting for now.
    [hr]
    When it came down to it I dropped everything and ran.
    -Ramza Final Fantasy Tactics

  • SephirothSephiroth Fayetteville, NC, USAMember Posts: 1,035
    Oh man I was waiting for somebody else who felt the way I did to surface, thanks for the post! Now if only there was a way to convince the big companies to not do anything visually. Then the coding market would be heaven for people like us again.

    -[italic][b][red]S[/red][purple]e[/purple][blue]p[/blue][green]h[/green][red]i[/red][purple]r[/purple][blue]o[/blue][green]t[/green][red]h[/red][/b][/italic]

  • veliusvelius Member Posts: 456
    Actually Universities like the one I'll be attending typically keep ASM, C, and C++ as the fore-front of programming. They only offer classes like VB to give you a look at that or to supply an easy class for an elective. The University is one of the top 25 in the Nation, and the science and engineering was ranked in the top 5. I'd say they know what they are doing. Good luck with your server.

    [hr]
    When it came down to it I dropped everything and ran.
    -Ramza Final Fantasy Tactics

  • xbobxbob Member Posts: 69
    [b][red]This message was edited by xbob at 2003-5-25 7:12:24[/red][/b][hr]
    : I wanted to share with you the level of coding knowledge instructors now have to offer at colleges nation-wide. This angered me in so many ways it is insane. This is my friend on ICQ:
    : [code]
    : [CMF]-Sc(+)pE: next year i HAVE to take Visual Basic
    : [CMF]-Sc(+)pE: it's mandatory
    : [CMF]-Sc(+)pE: soooo *edited*
    : [CMF]-Sc(+)pE: they replaced the c++ class with VB
    : [CMF]-Sc(+)pE: they said they were replacing it because "C++ is outdated"
    : [CMF]-Sc(+)pE: thats wut they said when i was choosing classes
    : [/code]
    : Now I am not Bill Gates or anything, but Basic can NOT stand up to C++ in terms of overall performance. Correct me if I am wrong, but I am betting they went from a DOS C++ class to a Windoze VisualBasic class, not realizing that C++ can also compile for Windoze, whether it's visual or not. Just wanted to share this with my fellow coders who actually code and don't just point and click.
    :
    : -[italic][b][red]S[/red][purple]e[/purple][blue]p[/blue][green]h[/green][red]i[/red][purple]r[/purple][blue]o[/blue][green]t[/green][red]h[/red][/b][/italic]
    :

    [ITALIC]Now I am not Bill Gates or anything, but Basic can NOT stand up to C++ in terms of overall performance[/ITALIC][BLUE]
    True, which probably is why you never see a game developer studio seeking VB programmers, for example ;)
    However, I do believe that VB can be used for many applications where speed isn't that important (otherwise it would have left the market long ago).
    [/BLUE]



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