Palestine/Israeli conflict and Annapolis

hie folks
Seems like little was achieved at Annapolis and that it could simply have been another of those many talk-shops. It's surprising that on both sides, we had some people protesting about the talks, meaning to say there seems to be nevr going to be a win win solution to both sides. Going to Annapolis without Hamas seems to me like trying to build a house without mortar (well that's how Great Zimbabwe was built, but it doesn't seems like the security intended was achieved ;-) ). It's good to have the Syrians there but what about the Iranians? After all Hezbullar seems to be the later's proxies!!
Do you think that is a hand the Iranians will easily give up, without there being something in it for them? Te two state solution seems to workable but what kind of state will Palestine be? I think it would be a hate filled, poor and deprived state that occasionally vents it's frustration on Israel. My other friend was saying he thinks Israel is not worthy that trouble after all, but well, that's just being simplistic about the whole issue.
What do you guys think is the best that can be done between these two peoples?
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Comments

  • : hie folks
    : Seems like little was achieved at Annapolis and that it could simply
    : have been another of those many talk-shops. It's surprising that on
    : both sides, we had some people protesting about the talks, meaning
    : to say there seems to be nevr going to be a win win solution to both
    : sides. Going to Annapolis without Hamas seems to me like trying to
    : build a house without mortar (well that's how Great Zimbabwe was
    : built, but it doesn't seems like the security intended was achieved
    : ;-) ). It's good to have the Syrians there but what about the
    : Iranians? After all Hezbullar seems to be the later's proxies!!
    : Do you think that is a hand the Iranians will easily give up,
    : without there being something in it for them? Te two state solution
    : seems to workable but what kind of state will Palestine be? I think
    : it would be a hate filled, poor and deprived state that occasionally
    : vents it's frustration on Israel. My other friend was saying he
    : thinks Israel is not worthy that trouble after all, but well, that's
    : just being simplistic about the whole issue.
    : What do you guys think is the best that can be done between these
    : two peoples?

    [color=Blue]
    There is almost no hope for Israeli/Palestinian conflict. Annapolis conference was predicted to go with no results in sight. Sad to see that, of course...

    The process can begin when the war between Palestine and Israel will stop. Almost every day a few Palestinian missiles are hitting Israel side.

    Iran will be a bigger problem, however. When Iran creates an A bomb (which is a matter of some time - 18 months or so) - situation will escalate very quickly.
    [/color]
  • Hi,

    I'm actually going to be in Israel later on this month for a conference, and am taking a few days vacation after that to see some places. Should be a really interesting trip - hopefully they don't start some major fighting when I'm supposed to be there though!

    Anyway, it's a messy problem. Instating a new country where people are already living and encouraging mass immigration of people from all over the world there, especially in a religiously sensitive area like that, was a stupid idea in my view. I mean, it wasn't so hard to see that it was going to cause problems, was it? But that's what happens when religion and politics mix. The darn Zionists (many of them misled Christians, I'm sad to say) have a lot to answer for, and from what I understand are still a powerful lobbying force in the US government today.

    So while I think Israel was a bad idea in the first place, that doesn't mean the solution is to get rid of it now. Then we just create yet another refugee situation, plus Israel has too many supporters anyway for that to happen so any attempt to "wipe it off the map" (hi, Iran) is just going to lead to a huge war.

    So as you say, I think a two-state solution is the only realistic way. I think the Israeli government's concerns about whether an independent Palestinian state being created now would potentially cause them security issues are legitimate. However, they could stall it over that issue forever and a day. Creating a sustainable and secure Palestinian state is also hugely challenging, particularly with the fragmentation now with Hamas and Fatah.

    Wonder if you could maybe not create a Palestinian state right off, but instead give the land over to neighboring Arab countries to rule and build up, under an agreement that it will be granted independence some years into the future? Then some more stable but Arab countries manage it for a while. Because Israel managing the security of a Palestinian state to be is never going to get any legitimacy in the eyes of the Arab world and the Palestinians.

    As for Iran, they are geographically miles away from the situation. I'm not sure why they should be involved in talks related to Israel - it's not like they have a land border with it. Heck, they don't even border a country that in turn borders Israel! If they are funding a terrorist group in another country, they should be brought to account for that as a separate issue, not as part of the Israeli peace talks.

    Just my few cents. :-)

    Jonathan
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  • [blue]Wonder if you could maybe not create a Palestinian state right off, but instead give the land over to neighboring Arab countries to rule and build up, under an agreement that it will be granted independence some years into the future? Then some more stable but Arab countries manage it for a while.[/blue]

    I can bet you my house that the Arabs would soon be quarelling amongst themselves as to who should have how much control/influence over that Palestinian state! Should it be Egypt, Iraq, Libya, Syria, or the dreaded Iran? Well, that might be fine for Israel coz the attention would be diverted from them, for a while maybe. But i think it's not a bad idea to use the Palestinian land as an apple of discord for the Arabs ;-)

    How viable would be a Palestinian state beside a rich/economically vibrant Israel? Is it not that Palestinians cross into Israel to do those menial jobs just to survive? Would Israel be prepared to give up some land to pre-1967 borders? Especially considering the security situation that would result from having a central part that is just 9 miles wide, and so close to the highly populated Israeli cities?

    On another note, Jonathan, enjoy your trip to Israel, I am also planning to go over there some time soon. The place seems fascinating enough. Would indeed be paradise were it not of daily trade of insults and fire with their 'neighbours'.
  • [color=Blue]: Wonder if you could maybe not create a Palestinian state right off,
    : but instead give the land over to neighboring Arab countries to rule
    : and build up, under an agreement that it will be granted
    : independence some years into the future? Then some more stable but
    : Arab countries manage it for a while. Because Israel managing the
    : security of a Palestinian state to be is never going to get any
    : legitimacy in the eyes of the Arab world and the Palestinians.[/color]:
    The whole idea of Israel - Palestinian conflict is not about creation of Palestinian state. It is about destroying Israel. Back to 1948, when UN made decision about creation of two states Israel and Palestine, jews immediately started to create their state and arabs immidiately started to fight against them. They (arabs) [b]have not even tried [/b] to build Palestine state. Never.
    The Israel government made big mistake when they decided to build their settlements on occupied Arabs territories to protect Israel borders. This idea did work perfectly back to 18th century when Russian Quinn Katherine the Grade started to build Russian settlements (Don Cossacks villages) across Russia southern borders to protect those (see link http://www.armymuseum.ru/kaz1_e.html ). But it deffently did not work in Israel/Palestine situation.
  • lionb, you say the Palestinians have not even tried to build their state, but have they ever been offered a viable opportunity to? How would you feel if it were you and you had built a nice house next to Israel before 1967, only to have it snatched in a blitz and be driven into a refugee camp? Would you try to build another one somewhere else? What guarantee would you have that sometime later, the new Israeli borders may then be not so 'viable', and so more land get 'needed' to make it viable, and what's next...
    Isn't Israel still building houses/settlements in some disputed areas of East Jerusalem? In as much as Arabs are not so cooperative, i think Israelis are just too high-handed and ruthless on them.
  • : lionb, you say the Palestinians have not even tried to build their
    : state, but have they ever been offered a viable opportunity to?
    :How : would you feel if it were you and you had built a nice house next to Israel before 1967, only to have it snatched in a blitz and be
    : driven into a refugee camp?
    [color=Blue]They [b]had this opportunity starting from 1948 to 1967[/b]. Nineteen years is not it enough to build country? It was enough for jews to build their country. Like I said, arabs/Palestenians do not even try to start to do that. Instead they started to try to attack Israel. First time in 1949, then 1959, then they planned to do it again in 1967. They were not able to do it because Israel intelegence was able to predict it and Israel Army attacked Arab's Army just few hours before Arabs military forces planned to attack Israel. When UN make descision about creation Israel and Palestine Arabs leaders told arab who had to live in Israel that they had to leave Israel other wise jews would kill them. Most of them belived to those layers and left their homes (refuge). The rest (I think smartest ones) decided to stay. Those arabs stil live in Israel and not going to refuge/run away from this country. Back to 1948, Israel goverment told those arabs who left Israel that they have one year to return back to their homes. They did not want to do that [/color]

    Would you try to build another one
    : somewhere else? What guarantee would you have that sometime later,
    : the new Israeli borders may then be not so 'viable', and so more
    : land get 'needed' to make it viable, and what's next...
    [color=Blue]The best guarantee for that is stopping to attack Israel[/color]
    : Isn't Israel still building houses/settlements in some disputed
    : areas of East Jerusalem?
    [color=Blue]I told my opinion about jewiish settlements on Palestinian territory. It's wrong. [b]Jerusalem, IMO, has to be open City that does not belongs to any country/nations[/b][/color]
    In as much as Arabs are not so cooperative,
    : i think Israelis are just too high-handed and ruthless on them.
    :
  • lionb, you say in 1967, Israel attacked the Arab army when it was within hours of attacking Israel. If so, how come the Egyptian Air force was totally obliterated in hours, without any show of readiness for war? Well i am from a military background and i just can't buy that the Arabs were within hours of attacking, only to be caught so un-awares that their air-force hardly scrambled a few jets to DEFEND their air space! I think it would be more helpful to pay more attention to historical details and factor in logic, rather than just swallowing cheap propaganda.

    However, with the amount of vitriol(churned towards Israel) and military movement in the region, i don't discount the possibility that the arabs were going to attack israel at some time, BUT the Israelis knew beyond doubt that they were going to win hands down and that they were going to grab a huge chunk of land in that exchange. The gains were so tempting that i'm compelled to believe that the 1967 attack was well pre-meditated and well calculated.

    Also, in as much as the Arab governments encouraged Palestinians to vacate their lands for their armies to have a clear shot at Israel, i still think a good number of Palestinians were forcibly driven off their land by the Israeli army. Would you have stayed in your village if it neighboured Der Yassin? Talk about being smart and remaining behind in Israel.

    How much power do you think the general masses in refugee camps have over hamas and Islamic Jihad militants? Do you think the Israeli army does itself favours by bombarding the jihadists and killing bystanders in the process? How much do you support collective and disproportinate punishment lionb?
  • ...Also, lionb, are the Arabs who are still in Israel accorded the same rights as Israeli citizens of Jewish origin? Would they retain citizenship if they spend more than 5 years outside the country? Can they join the army if they want? Can they walk around freely as other citizens? Without being searched and harassed?

    One thing i have never been able to understand is why do so may people hate Jews? Why is history so full of Jewish persecution? For a people who have contributed so much to human civilization, it's a paradox they have been treated so badly in history. Does anyone know why?
  • : lionb, you say in 1967, Israel attacked the Arab army when it was
    : within hours of attacking Israel. If so, how come the Egyptian Air
    : force was totally obliterated in hours, without any show of
    : readiness for war? Well i am from a military background and i just
    : can't buy that the Arabs were within hours of attacking, only to be
    : caught so un-awares that their air-force hardly scrambled a few jets
    : to DEFEND their air space! I think it would be more helpful to pay
    : more attention to historical details and factor in logic, rather
    : than just swallowing cheap propaganda.
    :
    [color=Blue]All that I told you about Arab-Jews relations is a historical true not propaganda. Moreover, there is one more historical fact. Arab's Army at that moment was much much biger (if I am not misstaken about 3 times larger) than Israel's one. [/color]
    :
    : However, with the amount of vitriol(churned towards Israel) and
    : military movement in the region, i don't discount the possibility
    : that the arabs were going to attack israel at some time, BUT the
    : Israelis knew beyond doubt that they were going to win hands down
    : and that they were going to grab a huge chunk of land in that
    : exchange. The gains were so tempting that i'm compelled to believe
    : that the 1967 attack was well pre-meditated and well calculated.
    :
    : Also, in as much as the Arab governments encouraged Palestinians to
    : vacate their lands for their armies to have a clear shot at Israel,
    : i still think a good number of Palestinians were forcibly driven off
    : their land by the Israeli army.
    :
    [color=Blue]It may be happened in 1967 during 6 days war. Unfortunately, there is always a refugee movement during the war and did happened in this conflict. At the mean time, a lot of Palestinians did stay in their homes on occupied by Israel land but I did not know no one case when Israelis killed innocent civilians (except bystanders during Israelis attack of militants) without any reason or massive massacre action against Palestinians as Arabs leaders promised them. But I know a lot of cases when idiots from Hamas and Jihad killed innocent Israelis civilians (jews and others) and do know that idiots from Hamas are not brave enough to try to atack Israel Army as it was done by Resistance against nazi during WWII in Europe and SU or afganians resistance against Soviet Army. I also know Israel destroyed houses of idiots-suicide bombardiers that killed innocent Israelis civilians and I believe that punishment pushed other idiots to think before repeat that kind of action[/color]
    :
    Would you have stayed in your
    : village if it neighboured Der Yassin? Talk about being smart and
    : remaining behind in Israel.
    :
    : How much power do you think the general masses in refugee camps have
    : over hamas and Islamic Jihad militants? Do you think the Israeli
    : army does itself favours by bombarding the jihadists and killing
    : bystanders in the process? How much do you support collective and
    : disproportinate punishment lionb?
    :
    [color=Blue]I do not think that collective punishment is good idea espacially if it hurt civilian people. Unfortunately, people use it. 20 millions soviet people killed by nazis, Pearl Harbor, Hirosima and Nagasaki, thousands civilian people from Germany killed by Soviet and American army during WWII.
    Palestinians can stopped this punishment very easily. They have to stop to support Hamas.[/color]
  • Ok, 'Palestinians can stop supporting Hamas', why shouldn't they be accorded the right to align to the political party of their choice? (i can hear the heated retort that Hamas is a terrorist organization, but do we know how much hamas are doing for the palestinian people?). Do you know the amount of money they spend providing charity to the Gazans/Palestinians? Compare that with the occasional bulldozing of a house and 'sniping' militants with ROCKETS which invariably kill 'bystanders'. You will easily see that Palestinians choose hamas for a logical reason; they seem to give them the best, or they are actually giving them the best in life, than anyone else.
    Looking at history, i still am convinced that inspite of the Arab army being bigger than Israel's, the later were technically stronger (in hardware and sophistication) and they knew it! Also, i don't beleive it that the Arbs were within hours of attacking. Factor in the pre-emptive attack that wiped out Egypt's air-force and you wil see that the arabs had no chance at all.
    In my opinion, it has been proven a thousand and one times that using force and collective punishment on the Palestinians doesn't work. With the current trend, i can bet you, these guys will be fighting each other in the next thousand years!
  • : Ok, 'Palestinians can stop supporting Hamas', why shouldn't they be
    : accorded the right to align to the political party of their choice?
    :
    [color=Blue]Do you really beilive that most Palestinians in Gaza support Hamas? Do you know what Hamas did to Palestinians in Gaza who did not want to support Hamas?[/color]
    : (i can hear the heated retort that Hamas is a terrorist
    : organization, but do we know how much hamas are doing for the
    : palestinian people?). Do you know the amount of money they spend
    : providing charity to the Gazans/Palestinians? Compare that with the
    : occasional bulldozing of a house and 'sniping' militants with
    : ROCKETS which invariably kill 'bystanders'. You will easily see that
    : Palestinians choose hamas for a logical reason; they seem to give
    : them the best, or they are actually giving them the best in life,
    : than anyone else.
    :
    [color=Blue]More than year ago Israels army left Gaza. Moreover, jewish people left their settlements in Gaza territory. Gaza is not occupied by Israel anymore. What Palestinians from Gaza started to do in response to that? Under Hamas and Jihad leadership they started to fired rockets toward Israel towns trying to [b]kill innocent civilians[/b]. What do you think is a logical reason why Hamas choose that behabioral instead of trying to live peacefully with Israel? I think, the reason is only one. The major goal of people from Hamas, Jihad, Hezbollah and governments who are behind them is destroyng Israel and killing jews. They do not care about lifes of millions Palestinians at all. They lied them promising better life like they lied to idiots suicides about betters lifes after they will kill jews.
    PS. Palestinians, who lives in West Bank and East Jerusalem, teritory that still is occupied by Israel, economically lives much better than Cazans. [/color]

  • : [color=Blue]Do you really beilive that most Palestinians in Gaza
    : support Hamas? Do you know what Hamas did to Palestinians in Gaza
    : who did not want to support Hamas?[/color]
    Ok, lionb, we have to get one thing straight here, i am NOT a fan of hamas and do not believe they are a democratic and noble entity, but am just highlighting the undeniable fact that they are VERY active in the charity business and are loved by a majority of the Palestinian people! No doubt they won with a landslide in probably the only democratic elections ever held in the Middle East (excluding democratic Israel of course). Keep that in mind everytime you think about hamas and the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.
    : [color=Blue]More than year ago Israels army left Gaza. Moreover,
    : jewish people left their settlements in Gaza territory. Gaza is not
    : occupied by Israel anymore. What Palestinians from Gaza started to
    : do in response to that? Under Hamas and Jihad leadership they
    : started to fired rockets toward Israel towns trying to [b]kill
    : innocent civilians[/b].
    What do you think is a logical reason why
    : Hamas choose that behabioral instead of trying to live peacefully
    : with Israel? I think, the reason is only one. The major goal of
    : people from Hamas, Jihad, Hezbollah and governments who are behind
    : them is destroyng Israel and killing jews. They do not care about
    : lifes of millions Palestinians at all. They lied them promising
    : better life like they lied to idiots suicides about betters lifes
    : after they will kill jews.
    : PS. Palestinians, who lives in West Bank and East Jerusalem,
    : teritory that still is occupied by Israel, economically lives much
    : better than Cazans. [/color]
    lionb, do you know how much control Israel has over the Gaza strip? They can just pull a plug cut off water and electricity from the Gaza strip, collectively punishing [b]innocent kids and women[/b]. Israel even controls who can leave the strip even for the Islamic Hajj!
    That some Arab leaders ave too vicious, malicious and even moronic towards Israel is undeniable (i have posted several shocking quotes on this site before), BUT Israel is not doing herself favors by bulldozing houses, sniping with rockets, cutting off electricity and a lot other policies that humiliate and angers ordinary Palestinians.
    You also keep on hammering home the point that Palestinians in Israel and the West bank are ECONOMICALLY better off than those in the Gaza, BUT are those Palestinians in Israel enjoying equal rights as first class citizens do? Can they leave for more than 5 years and be able to come back? Can they join the army? I asked you those questions and you did not attend to them.

  • : lionb, do you know how much control Israel has over the Gaza strip?
    : They can just pull a plug cut off water and electricity from the
    : Gaza strip, collectively punishing [b]innocent kids and women[/b].
    : Israel even controls who can leave the strip even for the Islamic
    : Hajj!
    :
    [color=Blue]Israel started to do that to protect their peopole against of idiots-suicide bombardiers that killed innocent Israelis civilians and in response of rocket fired toward their towns to protect their people!!!!!! Hamas does it in purpose! They want people to belive that they are innocent and Israel is agressive. That's why they provocked Israel to behave agressively! Is not that clear?
    Read this[/color]
    http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1196847361457&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull
  • : : lionb, do you know how much control Israel has over the Gaza strip?
    : : They can just pull a plug cut off water and electricity from the
    : : Gaza strip, collectively punishing [b]innocent kids and women[/b].
    : : Israel even controls who can leave the strip even for the Islamic
    : : Hajj!
    : :
    : [color=Blue]Israel started to do that to protect their peopole
    : against of idiots-suicide bombardiers that killed innocent Israelis
    : civilians and in response of rocket fired toward their towns to
    : protect their people!!!!!! Hamas does it in purpose! They want
    : people to belive that they are innocent and Israel is agressive.
    : That's why they provocked Israel to behave agressively! Is not that
    : clear?
    : Read this[/color]
    : http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1196847361457&pagename=JPo
    : st%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

    The link you provided extols Israel's commitment to the establishment of a Palestinian state, fair and fine, but what sort of state is that they want/envisage? Do they want the 'terror infrastructure' to be dismantled and incorporated into a viable army/security force for the Palestinian state or they want a 'sate' that has no police force, no army, no navy, no armed forces at all? What type of state is that? A colony?
    Do you know that before Annapolis, the Palestinians insisted on 'core issues' like the status of East Jerusalem, the right of return for refugees, and the [b] final borders of the future Palestinian state[/b] to be addressed and a detailed document with the declaration to be issued, but what did the Israelis say? They say NO, we don't want any core issues to be discussed, that instead of a 'declaration of principles' or 'agreement of principles', we want a general 'declaration of interests'!
    If Israel are on the moral high ground and are in the right in claiming the land they currently hold, why should they BAN the discussion of CORE ISSUES before a conference? Does that really show to you a people committed to a Palestinian state? eh, lionb? How do you explain that?
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