the problem with prayer

This is a branch from a message from paul:

: : : - an experiment won't come out with certain results because you ask God to make it do so.
:
: I have always had a problem with prayer.
: It seems to me that there is a 50% chance that your prayer will be "answered", and 50% that it isn't "God's will".

The catch-all "explanation" that believers usually give is "God answers ALL prayers, but sometimes the answer is NO".

Prayer as meditation I can understand. Prayer as petition I cannot.


[size=5][italic][blue][RED]i[/RED]nfidel[/blue][/italic][/size]
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Comments

  • once again:

    "Prayer as meditation I can understand. Prayer as petition I cannot."

    infidel is right....


    : This is a branch from a message from paul:
    :
    : : : : - an experiment won't come out with certain results because you ask God to make it do so.
    : :
    : : I have always had a problem with prayer.
    : : It seems to me that there is a 50% chance that your prayer will be "answered", and 50% that it isn't "God's will".
    :
    : The catch-all "explanation" that believers usually give is "God answers ALL prayers, but sometimes the answer is NO".
    :
    : Prayer as meditation I can understand. Prayer as petition I cannot.
    :
    :
    : [size=5][italic][blue][RED]i[/RED]nfidel[/blue][/italic][/size]
    :

    [size=5][italic][blue]Dar[RED]Q[/RED][/blue][/italic][/size]
    http://www.darqweb.tk

  • : The catch-all "explanation" that believers usually give is "God
    : answers ALL prayers, but sometimes the answer is NO".

    The way I tend to put it is - God gives us what we need and is good for us, and not always the things we want but don't actually need.

    Just my thoughts/experience....

    Jonathan



    -------------------------------------------
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  • [b][red]This message was edited by infidel at 2003-2-6 13:4:58[/red][/b][hr]
    : : The catch-all "explanation" that believers usually give is "God
    : : answers ALL prayers, but sometimes the answer is NO".
    :
    : The way I tend to put it is - God gives us what we need and is good for us, and not always the things we want but don't actually need.
    :
    : Just my thoughts/experience....

    I guess some people "need" cancer or AIDS or birth defects or disabilities or mental illness..................

    "God works in mysterious ways."

    So mysterious that it's as if He isn't even there.

    Hmmmm........

    [size=5][italic][blue][RED]i[/RED]nfidel[/blue][/italic][/size]



  • [b][red]This message was edited by lionb at 2003-2-6 16:25:33[/red][/b][hr]
    - God gives us what we need and is good for us,
    [blue] Really? But I thought that I have something now because I always worked hard and didn't have time for religion ... Silly me [/blue]
    :
    and not always the things we want but don't actually need.
    :
    [blue]Such as ...?[/blue]


    : Just my thoughts/experience....
    :
    : Jonathan
    :
    :
    :
    : -------------------------------------------
    : Count your downloads:
    : http://www.downloadcounter.com/
    : And host your site:
    : http://www.incrahost.com/
    : Don't say I never give you anything... ;-)
    :
    :



  • [b][red]This message was edited by paulj59 at 2003-2-6 15:16:45[/red][/b][hr]
    : : The catch-all "explanation" that believers usually give is "God
    : : answers ALL prayers, but sometimes the answer is NO".
    :
    : The way I tend to put it is - God gives us what we need and is good for us, and not always the things we want but don't actually need.
    :
    : Just my thoughts/experience....
    :
    : Jonathan
    :

    If God gives us what we need, whether we want it or not, then there isn't any point in praying for what we want.
    Unless we can somehow change God's mind as to what it is we need, but you'd think that the all-knowing wouldn't need correcting.
    Very strange.


  • : [b][red]This message was edited by infidel at 2003-2-6 13:4:58[/red][/b][hr]
    : : : The catch-all "explanation" that believers usually give is "God
    : : : answers ALL prayers, but sometimes the answer is NO".
    : :
    : : The way I tend to put it is - God gives us what we need and is good for us, and not always the things we want but don't actually need.
    : :
    : : Just my thoughts/experience....
    :
    : I guess some people "need" cancer or AIDS or birth defects or disabilities or mental illness..................

    : [green] it works both ways tho... maybe god is trying to kill two birds with the one stone. by giving somebody cancer (or whatever) it gives them the choice to accept god and be at peace about their situation or reject him and at the same time it "tries" the relatives of that person as well. They have the choice to be angry and reject god or accept that their loved one is in the hands of god.... [/green]


    : "God works in mysterious ways."
    :
    : So mysterious that it's as if He isn't even there.
    :
    : Hmmmm........
    :
    : [size=5][italic][blue][RED]i[/RED]nfidel[/blue][/italic][/size]
    :
    :
    :

    [red][blue]D[/blue]odge[/red]

  • : : [green] it works both ways tho... maybe god is trying to kill two birds with the one stone. [/green]

    Since when does God need to kill birds? And why would he be concerned about an efficient use of stones? He is, after all, the alleged all-powerful grand high cosmic poo-bah.

    : [green]by giving somebody cancer (or whatever) it gives them the choice to accept god and be at peace about their situation or reject him and at the same time it "tries" the relatives of that person as well. They have the choice to be angry and reject god or accept that their loved one is in the hands of god.... [/green]

    I don't believe in the "Job" theory of God. You remember Job, don't you? Afflicted with all manner of horrible things because God and Satan had a little wager going. Why would God (who you might remember is the same thing as Love, according to John) want to inflict pain and suffering on people just to see if they are loyal? Do you go around "testing" the fidelity of your loved ones by making them suffer? That sounds needlessly cruel and vindictive to me and not at all "love". Oh, but that's right, according to Moses, God is a jealous God. But didn't Paul say that Love is not Jealous? They can't all be right.


    [size=5][italic][blue][RED]i[/RED]nfidel[/blue][/italic][/size]

  • : : : [green] it works both ways tho... maybe god is trying to kill two birds with the one stone. [/green]
    :
    : Since when does God need to kill birds? And why would he be concerned about an efficient use of stones? He is, after all, the alleged all-powerful grand high cosmic poo-bah.

    [red]LOL!![/red]

    : : [green]by giving somebody cancer (or whatever) it gives them the choice to accept god and be at peace about their situation or reject him and at the same time it "tries" the relatives of that person as well. They have the choice to be angry and reject god or accept that their loved one is in the hands of god.... [/green]
    :
    : I don't believe in the "Job" theory of God. You remember Job, don't you? Afflicted with all manner of horrible things because God and Satan had a little wager going. Why would God (who you might remember is the same thing as Love, according to John) want to inflict pain and suffering on people just to see if they are loyal? Do you go around "testing" the fidelity of your loved ones by making them suffer? That sounds needlessly cruel and vindictive to me and not at all "love". Oh, but that's right, according to Moses, God is a jealous God. But didn't Paul say that Love is not Jealous? They can't all be right.

    [red]God's jealousy is based on love, human jealousy is not.
    You know you are really good at this arguing thing! LOL [/red]


    : [size=5][italic][blue][RED]i[/RED]nfidel[/blue][/italic][/size]
    :
    :

    [size=5].... [red][blue]d[/blue]odge[/red]
  • : [red]God's jealousy is based on love, human jealousy is not.[/red]

    How could [italic]any[/italic] jealousy be "based on love"? What does the creator of everything have to be jealous of? I don't understand how the most powerful being could get so worked up over the mistakes and stupidity of puny mortals.

    : [red]You know you are really good at this arguing thing! LOL [/red]

    I've spent way more than my fair share of time arguing with Christians. Good luck thinking of something I haven't heard before. :-)


    [size=5][italic][blue][RED]i[/RED]nfidel[/blue][/italic][/size]

  • we suffer because we're crap. our God created us, He gave us a beautiful place to live, everything we need to live, each other to keep us company, and riches that we take for granted every day. He gave us the oxygen we breathe, the food we eat, the water we drink, the light, the dark, love, hope, joy, wonder... and he asked us one thing... to glorify Him who [b]made[/b] us... its not anything hard, nothing we have to go out of our way to do, we should [italic]want[/italic] to do it anyway...but we DONT... we spit in His face, we lash His back, we do anything [italic]but[/italic] glorify Him... and in spite of all this He still loves us...the way i see it cancer is not a burden, tragedy is not surprising ,hunger is not a need, God is [b]NOT[/b] just...for if God was just we would all be in hell right now..all it would take is one sin and we'd be sentenced to hell...if God had wanted to it would have be completely "just" for Him to have created us [italic]in hell[/italic]...we were made to glorify Him...He is our GOD...if it would have pleased Him to create us in hell he would have been completely justified to do so...luckully we have a God who loves us so much that when He set the penalty of sin at death and we sinned, our King, our God, loved us so much that He layed down his life in our place...someone had to fulfill the punishment, and He loved us so much that He HIMSELF suffered in our place... so when we have earthly problems it's nothing [italic]bad[/italic]...yes i'd rather go through life with no problems, but i definately deserve a hundred fold worse than i have
  • sounds like we've got another christian on our hands :)


    : we suffer because we're crap. our God created us, He gave us a beautiful place to live, everything we need to live, each other to keep us company, and riches that we take for granted every day. He gave us the oxygen we breathe, the food we eat, the water we drink, the light, the dark, love, hope, joy, wonder... and he asked us one thing... to glorify Him who [b]made[/b] us... its not anything hard, nothing we have to go out of our way to do, we should [italic]want[/italic] to do it anyway...but we DONT... we spit in His face, we lash His back, we do anything [italic]but[/italic] glorify Him... and in spite of all this He still loves us...the way i see it cancer is not a burden, tragedy is not surprising ,hunger is not a need, God is [b]NOT[/b] just...for if God was just we would all be in hell right now..all it would take is one sin and we'd be sentenced to hell...if God had wanted to it would have be completely "just" for Him to have created us [italic]in hell[/italic]...we were made to glorify Him...He is our GOD...if it would have pleased Him to create us in hell he would have been completely justified to do so...luckully we have a God who loves us so much that when He set the penalty of sin at death and we sinned, our King, our God, loved us so much that He layed down his life in our place...someone had to fulfill the punishment, and He loved us so much that He HIMSELF suffered in our place... so when we have earthly problems it's nothing [italic]bad[/italic]...yes i'd rather go through life with no problems, but i definately deserve a hundred fold worse than i have
    :

  • "but if all that's left is duty
    i'm falling on my sword
    atleast then i would not serve
    an unseen distant lord"
    -David Bazaan (Pedro the Lion)
  • : we suffer because we're crap.

    Ahhhh, I forgot how bright and sunny Christians are. It's been so long since I last visited the Christian chatroom at talkcity.

    : our God created us, He gave us a beautiful place to live, everything we need to live, each other to keep us company, and riches that we take for granted every day. He gave us the oxygen we breathe, the food we eat, the water we drink, the light, the dark, love, hope, joy, wonder...

    Allowing for poetic liscence, I'll accept this. As a materialist, however, this is just typical religious fluff.

    : and he asked us one thing... to glorify Him who [b]made[/b] us...

    This I don't particularly understand. I don't see how or why the all powerful all knowing supreme being would want or need to be "glorified" by insignificant mortals. I think this is just humans trying to make themselves seem more important than they are. Like "we're so flaming important to the universe that even GOD wants our praise."

    : its not anything hard, nothing we have to go out of our way to do, we should [italic]want[/italic] to do it anyway...

    Now that all depends. Someone like myself might think that being compassionate to others and trying to respect this pale blue dot that we live on is in some way glorifying "GOD". Others, particularly the Christians, seem to feel that you have to get all worked up into a froth and sing and rave and pray like fools. I think Christians, in general, are a bizarre lot.

    : for if God was just we would all be in hell right now..all it would take is one sin and we'd be sentenced to hell...if God had wanted to it would have be completely "just" for Him to have created us [italic]in hell[/italic]...

    This is another thing I don't understand about Christians. Since when does justice mean anyone who makes a mistake should spend eternity in a lake of fire? And how can the last sentence here even make any sense to you? Why is logic completely suspended in the Neverland ranch of Christianity?

    : we were made to glorify Him...He is our GOD...

    Back to this again. Do I write programs to glorify me? No. Does a carpenter make tables to glorify him? No. Do parents have children to glorify them? No. Why should we then assume that the most powerful being would create talking monkeys to glorify Him?

    : if it would have pleased Him to create us in hell he would have been completely justified to do so...

    Only in your bizarro anti-logic world.

    : luckully we have a God who loves us so much that when He set the penalty of sin at death and we sinned, our King, our God, loved us so much that He layed down his life in our place...

    Another bizarro anti-logic Christian belief. How can a supreme being suffer and die?

    : someone had to fulfill the punishment, and He loved us so much that He HIMSELF suffered in our place...

    This still makes absolutely no sense. An all powerful being who is defined as LOVE itself sets up a system where the only way sin can be forgiven is for an innocent creature to be sacrificed, knowing that humans will forever be so fallible that the only way this "punishment" can be extracted is for the all powerful being itself to "die".

    : so when we have earthly problems it's nothing [italic]bad[/italic]...yes i'd rather go through life with no problems, but i definately deserve a hundred fold worse than i have

    Just plain weird. I'm sure you're just a terrible, horrible, no good sinner :-P but even I wouldn't wish bad things on you on my worst day. I think a lot of Christians just have an upside-down view of everything.

    ***

    I do agree with some of the basic ideas of Christianity. Compassion, self sacrifice, love... but I think the buddhists are closer to the mark. Christianity, IMO, suffers from too much Hebraic and Zoroastrian influence. Christianity seems to me like an apocalyptic cult on a global scale. Islam too.


    [size=5][italic][blue][RED]i[/RED]nfidel[/blue][/italic][/size]

  • heh, you are a good arguer...my turn

    [italic]: : and he asked us one thing... to glorify Him who [b]made[/b] us...
    :
    [green]: This I don't particularly understand. I don't see how or why the all powerful all knowing supreme being would want or need to be "glorified" by insignificant mortals. I think this is just humans trying to make themselves seem more important than they are. Like "we're so flaming important to the universe that even GOD wants our praise."
    : [/green][/italic]

    i dont feel important...like i sad...im crap...i do feel loved...because i am...i know i dont deserve it, but i am...i'd give anything not to be who i've been (dont say i dont have any self-respect or somethin like that, thats just weak)...so i dont feel important...i do feel loved, like i said...because "the all powerful all knowing supreme" shouldnt "want or need to be 'glorified' by insignificant mortals."...i agree with you on that..but he does, and thats why we're lucky...thats why we're crap

    [italic]: : its not anything hard, nothing we have to go out of our way to do, we should [italic]want[/italic] to do it anyway...
    :
    [green]: Now that all depends. Someone like myself might think that being compassionate to others and trying to respect this pale blue dot that we live on is in some way glorifying "GOD". Others, particularly the Christians, seem to feel that you have to get all worked up into a froth and sing and rave and pray like fools. I think Christians, in general, are a bizarre lot.[/green][/italic]

    i think youre thinkin of the pentecostals when you say "get all worked up into a froth and sing and rave and pray like fools"...there are many "Christian" beliefs that i dont believe are "Christian" beliefs...amoung them the beliefs of catholics and penecostals...im not saying that if youre catholic youre not going to heaven, but i dont believe that the catholic teachings are christian and i dont believe that the catholic leaders (assuming they believe what they say) are saved...

    and i do think that "being compassionate to others and trying to respect this pale blue dot that we live on is in some way glorifying 'GOD'."

    [italic]: : for if God was just we would all be in hell right now..all it would take is one sin and we'd be sentenced to hell...if God had wanted to it would have be completely "just" for Him to have created us [italic]in hell[/italic]...
    :
    [green]: This is another thing I don't understand about Christians. Since when does justice mean anyone who makes a mistake should spend eternity in a lake of fire? And how can the last sentence here even make any sense to you? Why is logic completely suspended in the Neverland ranch of Christianity?[/green][/italic]

    justice means a mistake = eternity in a lake of fire because God made us and using logic [b]shouldnt[/b] have compassion toward us...to him we should just be creations...nothing "important"...seems to me youre giving us more importance than we should have here...we should be nothing to him..so if we hurt him why shouldnt he throw us out? because he loves us

    [italic]: : we were made to glorify Him...He is our GOD...
    :
    [green]: Back to this again. Do I write programs to glorify me? No. Does a carpenter make tables to glorify him? No. Do parents have children to glorify them? No. Why should we then assume that the most powerful being would create talking monkeys to glorify Him?[/green][/italic]

    i make programs to "glorify" me...i show my friends and say "look what i made"...i consider it a bragging right..i feel good when i come up with something complicated...i use my programs to make things easier for me...the only other reason to make them is for money...and money is self-glorification..unless youre just making something to help a friend out...which happens occasionally, but most of my programming is for myself

    [italic]: : if it would have pleased Him to create us in hell he would have been completely justified to do so...
    :
    [green]: Only in your bizarro anti-logic world.[/green][/italic]

    were his creations...again seems like youre giving us too much importance...if i for some reason wanted to make a program and delete it i could...awful comparrison i know...programs dont have feelings, but this is what i want you to get out of the comparrison...[b]thats how we [u]should[/u] be to God[/b]...after all..he gave us our feelings didnt he? ..it wouldnt be "inhumane" for him to take them away...we're [italic]just creations[/italic]...but we're loved

    [italic]: : luckully we have a God who loves us so much that when He set the penalty of sin at death and we sinned, our King, our God, loved us so much that He layed down his life in our place...
    :
    [green]: Another bizarro anti-logic Christian belief. How can a supreme being suffer and die?[/green][/italic]

    he's "supreme"...in the essence of the word he can do everything...sounds corny...dont like saying it...but if he's God...how can you say he [italic]can't[/italic] suffer and die...

    [italic]: : someone had to fulfill the punishment, and He loved us so much that He HIMSELF suffered in our place...
    :
    [green]: This still makes absolutely no sense. An all powerful being who is defined as LOVE itself sets up a system where the only way sin can be forgiven is for an innocent creature to be sacrificed, knowing that humans will forever be so fallible that the only way this "punishment" can be extracted is for the all powerful being itself to "die".[/green][/italic]

    the system is that the guilty creature dies...but through "sacrifice" of the innocent creature, the guilty one can live

    [italic]: : so when we have earthly problems it's nothing [u]bad[/u]...yes i'd rather go through life with no problems, but i definately deserve a hundred fold worse than i have
    :
    [green]: Just plain weird. I'm sure you're just a terrible, horrible, no good sinner :-P but even I wouldn't wish bad things on you on my worst day. I think a lot of Christians just have an upside-down view of everything.[/green][/italic]

    ..you didnt leave me anything to attack in this statement...youre right


    ***

    [code]
    "This line is metaphysical
    And on the one side
    The bad have lived in wickedness
    And on the other side
    The good have lived in arrongance
    And there's a steep slope
    With a short rope
    This line is metaphysical
    And there's a steady flow
    Moving to and fro"
    -David Bazan
    [/code]
  • : sounds like we've got another christian on our hands :)
    I do hope you mean that in a nice way.... ;-)

    Jonathan

    -------------------------------------------
    Count your downloads:
    http://www.downloadcounter.com/
    And host your site:
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    Don't say I never give you anything... ;-)

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