matters of faith

Faustine in red, infidel in purple

[red]You seem to have read more Bible than I do.[/red]

[purple]That happens once in a while. It was always supremely ironic when I could lecture some of the Christians about their own holy book. It still makes me smile.[/purple]

[red]This faith is something that I acquired thu' birth.[/red]

[purple]One of my favorite quotes that I can't remember who said it: "We're all born atheists, it takes [italic]years[/italic] to learn all this crap." I know what you mean, though. Or at least what you're trying to say. I was born to religious parents and look how I turned out![/purple]

[red]Whenever i get into a tight corner,it's comforting to think that someone is Up There for me.[/red]

[purple]I suppose. To me it doesn't really seem to make a difference. Either there isn't anyone "up there", or there is but he/she/it acts in such a way as there might as well not be. It's like the whole "God works in mysterious ways" nonsense. So mysterious, it seems, it's as if there's no God there at all.[/purple]

[red]I have no fight against other religions or atheists.They have their faith and I have mine.[/red]

[purple]Now that depends on which definition of "atheist" we're using. If we use the common one, the one that Christians seem to believe, then it means someone who believes there is no God. This, of course, is a belief that cannot be proven. To say "there is no God" is on the same level as to say "there is a God". Both statements require faith because there is no way prove them. Personally, I take "atheist" more literally. "a" (without) "theism" (belief in God/gods). I am an atheist in that I have no belief. I don't believe there is a God, but I don't believe there isn't. This tends to confuse people, especially Christians, so I use the term "nontheist" to suggest that I don't have any particular belief in God/gods without the baggage and preconceived notions of "atheist".[/purple]

[red]Even having no faith is a kind of faith ? It does have a label.[/red]

[purple]See previous answer[/purple]

[red]I am not a missionary,but a "practising catholic" .More flexible and by my nature i do respect most people view of things .Maybe not accept all,but usually understands it or tries to.[/red]

[purple]I appreciate that. Catholics are interesting. The chat room that I visited was primarily protestants. Baptists, Pentecostals, the whole range of American Christianity. Many (you wouldn't believe it unless you saw it) of these "Christians" were so anti-catholic that the Catholics were often treated worse than I was. I grew rather fond of a few of them since we were kind of in the same boat. It was they who noted occasionally that I, the atheist/nontheist, was more Christian that those claiming to be Christian.[/purple]


[size=5][italic][blue][RED]i[/RED]nfidel[/blue][/italic][/size]
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Comments

  • I hope this is not a script for the Saturday night with Faustine and Indifel show ;-)

    OK, home time.

    na night.
  • [b][red]This message was edited by Jonathan at 2003-7-23 14:41:38[/red][/b][hr]
    : Faustine in red, infidel in purple
    [blue]Jonathan in blue.[/blue]

    : [red]You seem to have read more Bible than I do.[/red]
    :
    : [purple]That happens once in a while. It was always supremely
    : ironic when I could lecture some of the Christians about their own
    : holy book. It still makes me smile.[/purple]

    [blue]Yes, though knowing the bible cover to cover doesn't make you a Christian. If I wanted I could learn Arabic and become an expert on the Qu'ran, but it wouldn't make me a Muslim. :-)[/blue]

    : [red]This faith is something that I acquired thu' birth.[/red]
    :
    : [purple]One of my favorite quotes that I can't remember who said
    : it: "We're all born atheists, it takes [italic]years[/italic] to
    : learn all this crap." I know what you mean, though. Or at least
    : what you're trying to say. I was born to religious parents and look
    : how I turned out![/purple]

    [blue]:-) I was born to parents who had no involvement in church stuff, and look how I turned out. Of course, if you're parents do have a faith then you are brought up and taught about it, whereas you may not hear of it otherwise, or not so intensely. Thus there is a greater likelihood of you ending up believing it too. I think what you mean though, Infidel, is that faith isn't inherited genetically, which I agree with. It's something we all have to personally discover and decide about ourselves.[/blue]

    : [red]Whenever i get into a tight corner,it's comforting to think
    : that someone is Up There for me.[/red]
    :
    : [purple]I suppose. To me it doesn't really seem to make a
    : difference. Either there isn't anyone "up there", or there is but
    : he/she/it acts in such a way as there might as well not be. It's
    : like the whole "God works in mysterious ways" nonsense. So
    : mysterious, it seems, it's as if there's no God there at all.
    : [/purple]

    [blue]I've heard that quote many times. Of course, maybe you don't want to notice God at work? It's amazing how the mind and block out things without you even knowing about it. Not that I'm suggesting you're ignorant to world events! :-) I like the idea of there being something to turn to, and let's face it, I'd say it's better than many things you could turn to whether it's true or not! However, there may not be. It's all a case of whether you believe it or not. Sometimes things happen and I wonder if it's just a step beyond co-incidence though. Or maybe I just want to find things that are a co-incidence too far to re-inforce my mental view that the stuff I believe could be true...[/blue]

    : [red]I have no fight against other religions or atheists.They have
    : their faith and I have mine.[/red]
    :
    : [purple]Now that depends on which definition of "atheist" we're
    : using. If we use the common one, the one that Christians seem to
    : believe, then it means someone who believes there is no God. This,
    : of course, is a belief that cannot be proven. To say "there is no
    : God" is on the same level as to say "there is a God". Both
    : statements require faith because there is no way prove them.
    : Personally, I take "atheist" more literally. "a" (without) "theism"
    : (belief in God/gods). I am an atheist in that I have no belief. I
    : don't believe there is a God, but I don't believe there isn't. This
    : tends to confuse people, especially Christians, so I use the
    : term "nontheist" to suggest that I don't have any particular belief
    : in God/gods without the baggage and preconceived notions
    : of "atheist".[/purple]

    [blue]Do you ever find that it's a bit of a big issue not to have any belief either way? I often have the "what if there is/isn't" debates in my mind. Then, I've written much Perl code and heck knows how twisted my mind is...[/blue]

    : [red]I am not a missionary,but a "practising catholic" .More
    : flexible and by my nature i do respect most people view of
    : things .Maybe not accept all,but usually understands it or tries to.
    : [/red]
    : [purple]I appreciate that. Catholics are interesting. The chat
    : room that I visited was primarily protestants. Baptists,
    : Pentecostals, the whole range of American Christianity. Many (you
    : wouldn't believe it unless you saw it) of these "Christians" were so
    : anti-catholic that the Catholics were often treated worse than I
    : was. I grew rather fond of a few of them since we were kind of in
    : the same boat. It was they who noted occasionally that I, the
    : atheist/nontheist, was more Christian that those claiming to be
    : Christian.[/purple]

    [blue]I don't see the catholic/protestant issue. Or get it at all. I'm a Christian. OK, I attend an Anglican church because...well...it's the one that means something to me; where the people who I know are and where I am involved with youthwork stuff. The worship and ministry that takes place there is on the whole compatible with my thinking. The fact that it's an Anglican church ain't that important to me. I doubt I'd label myself an Anglican anyway. Not there is anything wrong with associating yourself with a denomination, until you let that make you judgemental, which is not a Good Thing.

    It's always interesting to hear people who do care about denominations though. Like the time someone from the Methodist church accross the road said to the sunday group leaders "The work you're doing with the Sunday School kids is great." (The Methodist church kids come over to our Sunday events) "Thanks..." we said, but before we could say any more: "BUT I HOPE YOU'RE TEACHING THEM METHODIST VALUES..." What? I'm sharing with them the idea that maybe there is a God, and maybe there was this Jesus guy. I believe there's something to it, think it's important, and care enough to take time away from my hacking to tell others. (I'm always careful to try and present it in the "I believe" context rather than the "I know")[/blue]

    Have fun,

    Jonathan

    ###
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    (tr/yuiqwert/her anot/))for($::b);for($::c){$_.=$^X;
    /(p.{2}l)/;$_=$1}$::b=~/(..)$/;print("$::a$::b $::c hack$1.");



  • [b][red]This message was edited by faustinegeorge at 2003-7-23 21:32:16[/red][/b][hr]
    : Faustine in bold red, infidel in purple
    :
    : [red]You seem to have read more Bible than I do.[/red]
    :
    : [purple]That happens once in a while. It was always supremely ironic when I could lecture some of the Christians about their own holy book. It still makes me smile.[/purple]
    :
    : [red]This faith is something that I acquired thu' birth.[/red]
    :
    : [purple]One of my favorite quotes that I can't remember who said it: "We're all born atheists, it takes [italic]years[/italic] to learn all this crap." I know what you mean, though. Or at least what you're trying to say. I was born to religious parents and look how I turned out![/purple]
    : [red][b]yes,I was saying that I got the faith because I was born to religious parents.I have seen that persons who come to any religion after they have become mature have intense feeling towards it.I don't have that intense feeling . Maybe it is good,maybe bad[/b][/red]
    : [red]Whenever i get into a tight corner,it's comforting to think that someone is Up There for me.[/red]
    :
    : [purple]I suppose. To me it doesn't really seem to make a difference. Either there isn't anyone "up there", or there is but he/she/it acts in such a way as there might as well not be. It's like the whole "God works in mysterious ways" nonsense. So mysterious, it seems, it's as if there's no God there at all.[/purple]
    : [red][b]I was blurting out the fact that I turn to him only when I get into a tight corner.Most people do this, I think[/b][/red]
    : [red]I have no fight against other religions or atheists.They have their faith and I have mine.[/red]
    :
    : [purple]Now that depends on which definition of "atheist" we're using. If we use the common one, the one that Christians seem to believe, then it means someone who believes there is no God. This, of course, is a belief that cannot be proven. To say "there is no God" is on the same level as to say "there is a God". Both statements require faith because there is no way prove them. Personally, I take "atheist" more literally. "a" (without) "theism" (belief in God/gods). I am an atheist in that I have no belief. I don't believe there is a God, but I don't believe there isn't. This tends to confuse people, especially Christians, so I use the term "nontheist" to suggest that I don't have any particular belief in God/gods without the baggage and preconceived notions of "atheist".[/purple]
    :
    : [red]Even having no faith is a kind of faith ? It does have a label.[/red]
    :
    : [purple]See previous answer[/purple]
    :
    : [red]I am not a missionary,but a "practising catholic" .More flexible and by my nature i do respect most people view of things .Maybe not accept all,but usually understands it or tries to.[/red]
    :
    : [purple]I appreciate that. Catholics are interesting. The chat room that I visited was primarily protestants. Baptists, Pentecostals, the whole range of American Christianity. Many (you wouldn't believe it unless you saw it) of these "Christians" were so anti-catholic that the Catholics were often treated worse than I was. I grew rather fond of a few of them since we were kind of in the same boat. It was they who noted occasionally that I, the atheist/nontheist, was more Christian that those claiming to be Christian.[/purple]
    [red][b]There are different denominations within the ctholics.A different form of casteism . But that's another story[/b][/red]
    :
    :
    : [size=5][italic][blue][RED]i[/RED]nfidel[/blue][/italic][/size]
    :



  • : [b][red]This message was edited by Jonathan at 2003-7-23 14:41:38[/red][/b][hr]
    : : Faustine in red, infidel in purple
    : [blue]Jonathan in blue.[/blue]
    infidel in black

    : : [red]You seem to have read more Bible than I do.[/red]
    : :
    : : [purple]That happens once in a while. It was always supremely
    : : ironic when I could lecture some of the Christians about their own
    : : holy book. It still makes me smile.[/purple]
    :
    : [blue]Yes, though knowing the bible cover to cover doesn't make you a Christian. If I wanted I could learn Arabic and become an expert on the Qu'ran, but it wouldn't make me a Muslim. :-)[/blue]

    Oh certainly. I'm totally about "actions are more important than words." Seems to me Jesus was too. I've met so many Christians online who were all about the words. The Bible is the Word of God, Jesus is the Word of God, you must say the Magic Words (I'm a sinner, blah blah blah, please forgive me, yadda yadda yadda). It was all talk and I-know-the-Bible-better-than-you-ism. I was constantly saying that actions are far more important than that nonsense, and they would typically respond that "if you ask Jesus into your heart, then the actions will follow." Poppycock.

    : : [red]This faith is something that I acquired thu' birth.[/red]
    : :
    : : [purple]One of my favorite quotes that I can't remember who said
    : : it: "We're all born atheists, it takes [italic]years[/italic] to
    : : learn all this crap." I know what you mean, though. Or at least
    : : what you're trying to say. I was born to religious parents and look
    : : how I turned out![/purple]
    :
    : [blue]:-) I was born to parents who had no involvement in church stuff, and look how I turned out. Of course, if you're parents do have a faith then you are brought up and taught about it, whereas you may not hear of it otherwise, or not so intensely. Thus there is a greater likelihood of you ending up believing it too. I think what you mean though, Infidel, is that faith isn't inherited genetically, which I agree with. It's something we all have to personally discover and decide about ourselves.[/blue]

    Exactly. Being born to Jehovah's Witnesses predisposes you to becoming the same, but you're still a free agent, so to speak.

    : : [red]Whenever i get into a tight corner,it's comforting to think
    : : that someone is Up There for me.[/red]
    : :
    : : [purple]I suppose. To me it doesn't really seem to make a
    : : difference. Either there isn't anyone "up there", or there is but
    : : he/she/it acts in such a way as there might as well not be. It's
    : : like the whole "God works in mysterious ways" nonsense. So
    : : mysterious, it seems, it's as if there's no God there at all.
    : : [/purple]
    :
    : [blue]I've heard that quote many times. Of course, maybe you don't want to notice God at work? It's amazing how the mind and block out things without you even knowing about it. Not that I'm suggesting you're ignorant to world events! :-) I like the idea of there being something to turn to, and let's face it, I'd say it's better than many things you could turn to whether it's true or not! However, there may not be. It's all a case of whether you believe it or not. Sometimes things happen and I wonder if it's just a step beyond co-incidence though. Or maybe I just want to find things that are a co-incidence too far to re-inforce my mental view that the stuff I believe could be true...[/blue]

    You're right, it does work both ways. Sometimes I may not see something because I don't want to, sometimes you may see something because you want to. That's why I will stick with science.

    De ja vu. It suddenly occurred to me that I've said that before here. Perhaps even to you!

    : : [red]I have no fight against other religions or atheists.They have
    : : their faith and I have mine.[/red]
    : :
    : : [purple]Now that depends on which definition of "atheist" we're
    : : using. If we use the common one, the one that Christians seem to
    : : believe, then it means someone who believes there is no God. This,
    : : of course, is a belief that cannot be proven. To say "there is no
    : : God" is on the same level as to say "there is a God". Both
    : : statements require faith because there is no way prove them.
    : : Personally, I take "atheist" more literally. "a" (without) "theism"
    : : (belief in God/gods). I am an atheist in that I have no belief. I
    : : don't believe there is a God, but I don't believe there isn't. This
    : : tends to confuse people, especially Christians, so I use the
    : : term "nontheist" to suggest that I don't have any particular belief
    : : in God/gods without the baggage and preconceived notions
    : : of "atheist".[/purple]
    :
    : [blue]Do you ever find that it's a bit of a big issue not to have any belief either way? I often have the "what if there is/isn't" debates in my mind. Then, I've written much Perl code and heck knows how twisted my mind is...[/blue]

    Ack! Turn away from the dark side! Join us in Python!

    Not having any belief either way isn't really a big issue. People who are true nontheists are not that common in my experience. The biggest issue in re nontheism is explaining to theists that you're not just as faithful as them because you're not saying "there is NO God". Logic doesn't tend to be a strong suit for religious types.

    : : [red]I am not a missionary,but a "practising catholic" .More
    : : flexible and by my nature i do respect most people view of
    : : things .Maybe not accept all,but usually understands it or tries to.
    : : [/red]
    : : [purple]I appreciate that. Catholics are interesting. The chat
    : : room that I visited was primarily protestants. Baptists,
    : : Pentecostals, the whole range of American Christianity. Many (you
    : : wouldn't believe it unless you saw it) of these "Christians" were so
    : : anti-catholic that the Catholics were often treated worse than I
    : : was. I grew rather fond of a few of them since we were kind of in
    : : the same boat. It was they who noted occasionally that I, the
    : : atheist/nontheist, was more Christian that those claiming to be
    : : Christian.[/purple]
    :
    : [blue]I don't see the catholic/protestant issue. Or get it at all. I'm a Christian. OK, I attend an Anglican church because...well...it's the one that means something to me; where the people who I know are and where I am involved with youthwork stuff. The worship and ministry that takes place there is on the whole compatible with my thinking. The fact that it's an Anglican church ain't that important to me. I doubt I'd label myself an Anglican anyway. Not there is anything wrong with associating yourself with a denomination, until you let that make you judgemental, which is not a Good Thing.
    :
    : It's always interesting to hear people who do care about denominations though. Like the time someone from the Methodist church accross the road said to the sunday group leaders "The work you're doing with the Sunday School kids is great." (The Methodist church kids come over to our Sunday events) "Thanks..." we said, but before we could say any more: "BUT I HOPE YOU'RE TEACHING THEM METHODIST VALUES..." What? I'm sharing with them the idea that maybe there is a God, and maybe there was this Jesus guy. I believe there's something to it, think it's important, and care enough to take time away from my hacking to tell others. (I'm always careful to try and present it in the "I believe" context rather than the "I know")[/blue]

    I think I've mentioned this before, but the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America recently brokered a deal with the Anglican church to "combine forces" by essentially making the ELCA heirarchy subservient to the Holy Episcopate. My father just about had a cow. There was no way he was going to now be under the Church of England because of a political power play by a bunch of bishops and priests.

    Humans are so tribal.


    [size=5][italic][blue][RED]i[/RED]nfidel[/blue][/italic][/size]

  • : : [red][b]I have seen that persons who come to any religion after they have become mature have intense feeling towards it.I don't have that intense feeling . Maybe it is good,maybe bad[/b][/red]

    That's an interesting observation. I hadn't thought of that before. Though, as far as you "getting the faith" because you were born to religious parents, that was indoctrination, not inheritance. I once found a pamphlet that my parents received from their church when I was baptized. It said that to help ensure I would be a good Christian when I was older, it was their duty to instill a belief in God and Jesus throughout my childhood. Can't say I was really surprised.

    : : [red][b]I was blurting out the fact that I turn to him only when I get into a tight corner.Most people do this, I think[/b][/red]

    I think you're right in that most people do that. A lot of people also treat God as a Genie-in-a-bottle who will grant them wishes if they pray hard enough. I think both viewpoints are mistaken. And not simply because I don't believe in God.

    : [red][b]There are different denominations within the ctholics.A different form of casteism . But that's another story[/b][/red]

    I'd love to hear more about that. I'm not that familiar with Catholicism.


    [size=5][italic][blue][RED]i[/RED]nfidel[/blue][/italic][/size]

  • [b][red]This message was edited by Jonathan at 2003-7-24 16:5:50[/red][/b][hr]
    : : : Faustine in red, infidel in purple
    : : [blue]Jonathan in blue.[/blue]
    : infidel in black
    :
    : : : [red]You seem to have read more Bible than I do.[/red]
    : : :
    : : : [purple]That happens once in a while. It was always supremely
    : : : ironic when I could lecture some of the Christians about their own
    : : : holy book. It still makes me smile.[/purple]
    : :
    : : [blue]Yes, though knowing the bible cover to cover doesn't make
    : : you a Christian. If I wanted I could learn Arabic and become an
    : : expert on the Qu'ran, but it wouldn't make me a Muslim. :-)[/blue]
    :
    : Oh certainly. I'm totally about "actions are more important than
    : words." Seems to me Jesus was too. I've met so many Christians
    : online who were all about the words. The Bible is the Word of God,
    : Jesus is the Word of God, you must say the Magic Words (I'm a
    : sinner, blah blah blah, please forgive me, yadda yadda yadda). It
    : was all talk and I-know-the-Bible-better-than-you-ism. I was
    : constantly saying that actions are far more important than that
    : nonsense, and they would typically respond that "if you ask Jesus
    : into your heart, then the actions will follow." Poppycock.
    [blue]I believe that God can give direction, but you actually have to get up and do something about it! The other irony on words is that they are just a set of symbols that mean something (which is a good one to pull out when people get hung up about using symbolic things!). I think some get too caught up on the words and forget the meaning. Asking for forvgiveness is probably pretty pointless if you don't mean it and are just reading the words out of some liturgy! (Which probably means I've had some pointless mornings at church!)[/blue]

    : : : [red]This faith is something that I acquired thu' birth.[/red]
    : : :
    : : : [purple]One of my favorite quotes that I can't remember who said
    : : : it: "We're all born atheists, it takes [italic]years[/italic] to
    : : : learn all this crap." I know what you mean, though. Or at least
    : : : what you're trying to say. I was born to religious parents and look
    : : : how I turned out![/purple]
    : :
    : : [blue]:-) I was born to parents who had no involvement in church
    : : stuff, and look how I turned out. Of course, if you're parents do
    : : have a faith then you are brought up and taught about it, whereas
    : : you may not hear of it otherwise, or not so intensely. Thus there
    : : is a greater likelihood of you ending up believing it too. I
    : : think what you mean though, Infidel, is that faith isn't inherited
    : : genetically, which I agree with. It's something we all have to
    : : personally discover and decide about ourselves.[/blue]
    :
    : Exactly. Being born to Jehovah's Witnesses predisposes you to
    : becoming the same, but you're still a free agent, so to speak.
    [blue]Yup. I don't go for the "believe it because your parents do" thing. If I ever have kids and I still believe this stuff, I know that I'll encourage them in it, though I wouldn't force it on them or anything. You do see the outcomes of it though - young people who are forced to attend church stuff they don't want to by their parents. They get out at the first chance possible. God doesn't force himself on anyone, and so far as I'm concerned we (the global we) ain't here to do it for him. :-)[/blue]

    : : : [red]Whenever i get into a tight corner,it's comforting to think
    : : : that someone is Up There for me.[/red]
    : : :
    : : : [purple]I suppose. To me it doesn't really seem to make a
    : : : difference. Either there isn't anyone "up there", or there is but
    : : : he/she/it acts in such a way as there might as well not be. It's
    : : : like the whole "God works in mysterious ways" nonsense. So
    : : : mysterious, it seems, it's as if there's no God there at all.
    : : : [/purple]
    : :
    : : [blue]I've heard that quote many times. Of course, maybe you
    : : don't want to notice God at work? It's amazing how the mind and
    : : block out things without you even knowing about it. Not that I'm
    : : suggesting you're ignorant to world events! :-) I like the idea
    : : of there being something to turn to, and let's face it, I'd say
    : : it's better than many things you could turn to whether it's true
    : : or not! However, there may not be. It's all a case of whether
    : : you believe it or not. Sometimes things happen and I wonder if
    : : it's just a step beyond co-incidence though. Or maybe I just want
    : : to find things that are a co-incidence too far to re-inforce my
    : : mental view that the stuff I believe could be true...[/blue]
    :
    : You're right, it does work both ways. Sometimes I may not see
    : something because I don't want to, sometimes you may see something
    : because you want to. That's why I will stick with science.
    :
    [blue]Like there isn't any cases of people seeing things the way that matches their theory in science! :-) There are still plenty of things we don't know and things open to interpretation, so I don't see that sticking to science is a good answer.

    What if it turns out we're all in the Matrix and there are no such things as fundemental particles, and the reason we kept finding smaller and more fundemental particles is just a game for the pleasure of our minds? There goes your science. [/blue]

    : De ja vu. It suddenly occurred to me that I've said that before
    : here. Perhaps even to you!
    [blue]Yeah, probably. Either that or they just made a change in the Matrix.[/blue]

    : : : [red]I have no fight against other religions or atheists.They have
    : : : their faith and I have mine.[/red]
    : : :
    : : : [purple]Now that depends on which definition of "atheist" we're
    : : : using. If we use the common one, the one that Christians seem to
    : : : believe, then it means someone who believes there is no God. This,
    : : : of course, is a belief that cannot be proven. To say "there is no
    : : : God" is on the same level as to say "there is a God". Both
    : : : statements require faith because there is no way prove them.
    : : : Personally, I take "atheist" more literally. "a" (without) "theism"
    : : : (belief in God/gods). I am an atheist in that I have no belief. I
    : : : don't believe there is a God, but I don't believe there isn't. This
    : : : tends to confuse people, especially Christians, so I use the
    : : : term "nontheist" to suggest that I don't have any particular belief
    : : : in God/gods without the baggage and preconceived notions
    : : : of "atheist".[/purple]
    : :
    : : [blue]Do you ever find that it's a bit of a big issue not to have
    : : any belief either way? I often have the "what if there is/isn't"
    : : debates in my mind. Then, I've written much Perl code and heck
    : : knows how twisted my mind is...[/blue]
    :
    : Ack! Turn away from the dark side! Join us in Python!
    [blue]Don't know about you, but I feel the snake is a much more on the dark side than a camel. :-)

    You tried Perl? Anyway, I plan to give Python a go one day so I will join the fun some time.[/blue]

    : Not having any belief either way isn't really a big issue. People
    : who are true nontheists are not that common in my experience. The
    : biggest issue in re nontheism is explaining to theists that you're
    : not just as faithful as them because you're not saying "there is NO
    : God". Logic doesn't tend to be a strong suit for religious types.
    [blue]As a vast generalization that is... :-) I don't mind having my faith challenged, which is why I join in with these discussions and try not to appear stuck in my ways. Also whenever I post in other threads on this board on any topic other than this, they subsequently and quickly seem to die. Maybe that's co-incidence? Maybe God is leading me away from the off topic board? Nah...maybe not. Thanks for answering question.[/blue]

    : : : [red]I am not a missionary,but a "practising catholic" .More
    : : : flexible and by my nature i do respect most people view of
    : : : things .Maybe not accept all,but usually understands it or tries to.
    : : : [/red]
    : : : [purple]I appreciate that. Catholics are interesting. The chat
    : : : room that I visited was primarily protestants. Baptists,
    : : : Pentecostals, the whole range of American Christianity. Many (you
    : : : wouldn't believe it unless you saw it) of these "Christians" were so
    : : : anti-catholic that the Catholics were often treated worse than I
    : : : was. I grew rather fond of a few of them since we were kind of in
    : : : the same boat. It was they who noted occasionally that I, the
    : : : atheist/nontheist, was more Christian that those claiming to be
    : : : Christian.[/purple]
    : :
    : : [blue]I don't see the catholic/protestant issue. Or get it at
    : : all. I'm a Christian. OK, I attend an Anglican church
    : : because...well...it's the one that means something to me; where
    : : the people who I know are and where I am involved with youthwork
    : : stuff. The worship and ministry that takes place there is on the
    : : whole compatible with my thinking. The fact that it's an Anglican
    : : church ain't that important to me. I doubt I'd label myself an
    : : Anglican anyway. Not there is anything wrong with associating
    : : yourself with a denomination, until you let that make you
    : : judgemental, which is not a Good Thing.
    : :
    : : It's always interesting to hear people who do care about
    : : denominations though. Like the time someone from the Methodist
    : : church accross the road said to the sunday group leaders "The work
    : : you're doing with the Sunday School kids is great." (The
    : : Methodist church kids come over to our Sunday events) "Thanks..."
    : : we said, but before we could say any more: "BUT I HOPE YOU'RE
    : : TEACHING THEM METHODIST VALUES..." What? I'm sharing with them
    : : the idea that maybe there is a God, and maybe there was this Jesus
    : : guy. I believe there's something to it, think it's important, and
    : : care enough to take time away from my hacking to tell others.
    : : (I'm always careful to try and present it in the "I believe"
    : : context rather than the "I know") [/blue]
    :
    : I think I've mentioned this before, but the Evangelical Lutheran
    : Church of America recently brokered a deal with the Anglican church
    : to "combine forces" by essentially making the ELCA heirarchy
    : subservient to the Holy Episcopate. My father just about had a
    : cow. There was no way he was going to now be under the Church of
    : England because of a political power play by a bunch of bishops and
    : priests.
    :
    : Humans are so tribal.
    :
    [blue]Bah...church politics. Sad reality is that it seems that if there is any organisation with any kind of structure, there are politics, conflicting interests and so on. I guess it's just human nature too.

    I think denominations coming together is a good thing when done right and for the right reasons, it's breaking up another (unrequired) divide. What you seem to have described is almost a corporate style merger. If that's how it was, that's pretty sad. I don't know anything about it though, so I won't make anything up.

    What I'd like to see is churches, no matter what denomination they are, working together, with no friction, and co-operating for the greater good. I think that it's fine that different denominations focus on some things more (so long as they don't neglect stuff), worship in a slightly different style, etc, so long as it doesn't become a barrier. I fear in some cases, sadly, it does. There's plenty to be sad about in this world. I might as well go and write some more Perl and listen to old skool tunes.[/blue]

    Later,

    Jonathan

    ###
    for(74,117,115,116){$::a.=chr};(($_.='qwertyui')&&
    (tr/yuiqwert/her anot/))for($::b);for($::c){$_.=$^X;
    /(p.{2}l)/;$_=$1}$::b=~/(..)$/;print("$::a$::b $::c hack$1.");



  • [red][b]I have seen that persons who come to any religion after they have become mature have intense feeling towards it.I don't have that intense feeling . Maybe it is good,maybe bad[/b][/red]

    That's an interesting observation. I hadn't thought of that before. Though, as far as you "getting the faith" because you were born to religious parents, that was indoctrination, not inheritance. I once found a pamphlet that my parents received from their church when I was baptized. It said that to help ensure I would be a good Christian when I was older, it was their duty to instill a belief in God and Jesus throughout my childhood. Can't say I was really surprised.

    [blue]Yeah, though I guess some people feel strongly about it to the degree that they believe it is right that they instruct others to instill that believe. I guess it's a bit like how I believe that programmers should always lay code out using appropriate whitespace and comment their programs well, which is a belief I try to indoctrinate in those around me. So you guys, I don't want to see ANY code without...only kidding! :-) I know my example is pretty trivial compared as something as important as faith, which affects (or should IMHO affect) the way you live your life! Though whether it's right or wrong for the pamphlet to say what it did I don't think is my call to judge. Like most things, it can be ignored![/blue]

    [red][b]I was blurting out the fact that I turn to him only when I get into a tight corner.Most people do this, I think[/b][/red]

    I think you're right in that most people do that. A lot of people also treat God as a Genie-in-a-bottle who will grant them wishes if they pray hard enough. I think both viewpoints are mistaken. And not simply because I don't believe in God.

    [blue]Agree totally. I think turning to God as a convenience thing is a bit like having a friend and only talking to them when you need something from them, and ignoring them the rest of the time. And I believe God won't always give you what you want, he'll give you what you need, which can often be quite different. I want a girlfriend, but I need the money to buy CDs instead, and the time, of course, to write Perl. ;-)[/blue]

    [red][b]There are different denominations within the ctholics.A different form of casteism . But that's another story[/b][/red]

    I'd love to hear more about that. I'm not that familiar with Catholicism.

    [blue]Same here, on both of those statements.[/blue]

    Ugh...half past midnight...gotta be up at 7:30 AM...best to go bed.

    Night,

    Jonathan

    ###
    for(74,117,115,116){$::a.=chr};(($_.='qwertyui')&&
    (tr/yuiqwert/her anot/))for($::b);for($::c){$_.=$^X;
    /(p.{2}l)/;$_=$1}$::b=~/(..)$/;print("$::a$::b $::c hack$1.");

  • : Humans are so tribal.
    :
    [blue]heh,dontcha know [/blue]


    Faustine
    ---------
  • : : [red][b]There are different denominations within the ctholics.A different form of casteism . But that's another story[/b][/red]
    :
    : I'd love to hear more about that. I'm not that familiar with Catholicism.
    :
    :
    : [size=5][italic][blue][RED]i[/RED]nfidel[/blue][/italic][/size]
    :
    :
    I don't think that it is a universal feature of catholics.It is more specific to my country.We have had this since time imemmorial I think.
    The major two catholic factions here are Syrian Catholics and Latin Catholics.The first are supposed to be converted to christianity by St.Thomas.(Something like 'Straight from the horse's mouth' :-) )
    And the latter by the dutch/portugese.Also the former are basically from farming community and the latter from fisherfolks.So the divide is economic too.
    I think all this divisions are bulls*** ,but some people have to keep their power somehow.



  • : [blue](Which probably means I've had some pointless mornings at church!)[/blue]

    Is there any other kind of morning at church? :-)

    : [blue]Like there isn't any cases of people seeing things the way that matches their theory in science! :-) There are still plenty of things we don't know and things open to interpretation, so I don't see that sticking to science is a good answer.[/blue]

    Well sure, humans are humans, but at least the process of science uncovers such things. In religion, such things become codified and pretty soon you have people dancing around with poisonous snakes.

    : [blue]What if it turns out we're all in the Matrix and there are no such things as fundemental particles, and the reason we kept finding smaller and more fundemental particles is just a game for the pleasure of our minds? There goes your science. [/blue]

    Uh, ok :-P

    : [blue]You tried Perl? Anyway, I plan to give Python a go one day so I will join the fun some time.[/blue]

    Not enough to have an educated opinion of it, but from what I've read and the examples I've seen, Python is where I'd like to be.

    : [blue]As a vast generalization that is... :-) [/blue]

    Yeah, well it's hard not to sometimes.

    : ###
    : for(74,117,115,116){$::a.=chr};(($_.='qwertyui')&&
    : (tr/yuiqwert/her anot/))for($::b);for($::c){$_.=$^X;
    : /(p.{2}l)/;$_=$1}$::b=~/(..)$/;print("$::a$::b $::c hack$1.");

    This is why I'm not interested in learning Perl.


    [size=5][italic][blue][RED]i[/RED]nfidel[/blue][/italic][/size]

  • : : [blue](Which probably means I've had some pointless mornings at
    : : church!)[/blue]
    :
    : Is there any other kind of morning at church? :-)
    If you don't believe any of the God stuff, probably not. Personally I get something out of going there though, which suggests it's not pointless.

    Just curious, people are throwing round the word church a lot, but what does it mean to you?

    : : [blue]Like there isn't any cases of people seeing things the way
    : : that matches their theory in science! :-) There are still plenty
    : : of things we don't know and things open to interpretation, so I
    : : don't see that sticking to science is a good answer.[/blue]
    :
    : Well sure, humans are humans, but at least the process of science
    : uncovers such things. In religion, such things become codified and
    : pretty soon you have people dancing around with poisonous snakes.
    Yeah, but the very nature of religion means that it should have been right from the start. Imagine if I turned up at church and they said "actually, we've discovered there's another god"... Religion and science are different things; sure there are some similarities and they co-exist in my mind quite happily.

    : : [blue]What if it turns out we're all in the Matrix and there are
    : : no such things as fundemental particles, and the reason we kept
    : : finding smaller and more fundemental particles is just a game for
    : : the pleasure of our minds? There goes your science. [/blue]
    :
    : Uh, ok :-P
    Come on...I want a better answer than that! j/k ;-)

    : : [blue]You tried Perl? Anyway, I plan to give Python a go one day
    : : so I will join the fun some time.[/blue]
    :
    : Not enough to have an educated opinion of it, but from what I've
    : read and the examples I've seen, Python is where I'd like to be.
    Sure, though I like trying new things. I was plesantly surprised when I started learning C#.NET, which I didn't expect. What is Python like? Fairly OO I believe?

    : : [blue]As a vast generalization that is... :-) [/blue]
    : Yeah, well it's hard not to sometimes.
    True, so true...

    : : ###
    : : for(74,117,115,116){$::a.=chr};(($_.='qwertyui')&&
    : : (tr/yuiqwert/her anot/))for($::b);for($::c){$_.=$^X;
    : : /(p.{2}l)/;$_=$1}$::b=~/(..)$/;print("$::a$::b $::c hack$1.");
    :
    : This is why I'm not interested in learning Perl.
    But...but...it's beautiful! :-) (BTW, I don't normally write Perl code like that!)

    Jonathan

    ###
    for(74,117,115,116){$::a.=chr};(($_.='qwertyui')&&
    (tr/yuiqwert/her anot/))for($::b);for($::c){$_.=$^X;
    /(p.{2}l)/;$_=$1}$::b=~/(..)$/;print("$::a$::b $::c hack$1.");

  • : Just curious, people are throwing round the word church a lot, but what does it mean to you?

    That's tough. I see it at many levels. Being a fan of architecture, I love churches (the structures). I also understand it to be the collection of Jesus' followers, as in "The Church". Being the pantheistic individualist that I am, I would say that "nature is my church". "My" as in I don't feel, nor do I much care for, collective expression of spirituality. Does that make sense?

    Funny, the more times I say the word, "church", the more strange it sounds.

    : Yeah, but the very nature of religion means that it should have been right from the start.

    Wrong wrong wrong. The very nature of religion makes it completely subjective and based entirely on traditions and customs and culture. If your statement were correct, then the very earliest pagans were right.

    : Sure, though I like trying new things. I was plesantly surprised when I started learning C#.NET, which I didn't expect. What is Python like? Fairly OO I believe?

    Python is like magic. It can either be a plain "scripting" language like your regular shell scripts, all the way through OO. It's even more OO than Java or C# as it lets you create metaclasses, which are classes of classes. The one thing that I sometimes miss is that you can't overload functions in Python. In any given namespace, you can only have one object associated to a name. You can usually work around it, though, with a combination of the built-in dynamic typing and default or keyword arguments to make the same function operate on different sets of parameters.

    : : : ###
    : : : for(74,117,115,116){$::a.=chr};(($_.='qwertyui')&&
    : : : (tr/yuiqwert/her anot/))for($::b);for($::c){$_.=$^X;
    : : : /(p.{2}l)/;$_=$1}$::b=~/(..)$/;print("$::a$::b $::c hack$1.");
    : :
    : : This is why I'm not interested in learning Perl.
    : But...but...it's beautiful! :-) (BTW, I don't normally write Perl code like that!)

    The fact that you could write code like that seems an argument against Perl to me.


    [size=5][italic][blue][RED]i[/RED]nfidel[/blue][/italic][/size]

  • : : Just curious, people are throwing round the word church a lot, but
    : : what does it mean to you?
    :
    : That's tough. I see it at many levels. Being a fan of
    : architecture, I love churches (the structures). I also understand
    : it to be the collection of Jesus' followers, as in "The Church".
    To me church is much more about the people than the building. Some churches don't meet in a building that might be defined as a church! As for the buildings themselves, yes, some are very beautiful. Went to one in Liverpool (I think) once and it was amazing in there. Durham Cathedral is also very beautiful.

    : Being the pantheistic individualist that I am, I would say
    : that "nature is my church". "My" as in I don't feel, nor do I much
    : care for, collective expression of spirituality. Does that make
    : sense?
    Kinda, yeah. There is agreement amongst many of my Christian friends that just because people don't attend a traditional church service doesn't mean they don't belong to a church, and things that may not traditionally be regarded as church essentially can be considered that; a group of people, probably some who may be interested in the "God thing".

    As for nature being your church, yeah, I can kinda see that. Not sure how to explain it in other terms...maybe a bit like I "belong" to a certian group of people (e.g. a church) and you "belong" to nature kind of thing?

    I would say on collective expression of spirituality that even if many people gather together, I believe it's still a very personal thing.

    : Funny, the more times I say the word, "church", the more strange it
    : sounds.
    That happens with quite a few words. :-)

    : : Yeah, but the very nature of religion means that it should have
    : : been right from the start.
    : Wrong wrong wrong. The very nature of religion makes it completely
    : subjective and based entirely on traditions and customs and
    : culture. If your statement were correct, then the very earliest
    : pagans were right.
    Sure religion is subjective, because it's about our own personal beliefs! What I meant was that it wasn't nesecarily right from the start, but people who follow that religion BELIEVE it was. People believed the very earliest pagans were right at the time, maybe some still do... Belief isn't knowledge. Then, what is knowledge?

    As for based entirely on traditions and customs and culture - I'd disagree.

    : Python is like magic.
    So he slams religion and then starts talking about magic... ;-)

    : It can either be a plain "scripting" language like your regular
    : shell scripts, all the way through OO.
    Sounds good. I like a language that's flexible like that and can fit into many situations.

    : It's even more OO than Java or C# as it lets you create metaclasses,
    : which are classes of classes.
    C# allows you to have classes inside classes, or is this something different? I'm not familiar with the term "metaclasses".

    : The one thing that I sometimes miss is that you can't overload
    : functions in Python. In any given namespace, you can only have one
    : object associated to a name. You can usually work around it,
    : though, with a combination of the built-in dynamic typing and
    : default or keyword arguments to make the same function operate on
    : different sets of parameters.
    Sounds interesting. I'll have to give it a go.

    : : : : ###
    : : : : for(74,117,115,116){$::a.=chr};(($_.='qwertyui')&&
    : : : : (tr/yuiqwert/her anot/))for($::b);for($::c){$_.=$^X;
    : : : : /(p.{2}l)/;$_=$1}$::b=~/(..)$/;print("$::a$::b $::c hack$1.");
    : : :
    : : : This is why I'm not interested in learning Perl.
    : : But...but...it's beautiful! :-) (BTW, I don't normally write
    : : Perl code like that!)
    : The fact that you could write code like that seems an argument
    : against Perl to me.
    Oh yeah, and we can't delete the whitespace in other languages and make our code look as though it might be BF? I think not.

    [code]from sys import*;from string import *;t,x,y,j,s,a=range(256),0,0,0,1,argv[1]
    k=(map(lambda b:atoi(a[b:b+2],16), range(0,len(a),2))*256)[:256]
    for i in t[:]:j=(k[i]+t[i]+j)%256;t[i],t[j]=t[j],t[i]
    while(s):s=stdin.read(1);l,x=len(s),(x+1)%256;y,c=(y+t[x])%256,l and ord(s);(
    t[x],t[y])=t[y],t[x];stdout.write(chr(c^t[(t[x]+t[y])%256])[:l])
    [/code]

    Yeah, that's Python. Though I won't take that as a reason not to learn it! :-)

    Jonathan

    ###
    for(74,117,115,116){$::a.=chr};(($_.='qwertyui')&&
    (tr/yuiqwert/her anot/))for($::b);for($::c){$_.=$^X;
    /(p.{2}l)/;$_=$1}$::b=~/(..)$/;print("$::a$::b $::c hack$1.");

  • : As for nature being your church, yeah, I can kinda see that. Not sure how to explain it in other terms...maybe a bit like I "belong" to a certian group of people (e.g. a church) and you "belong" to nature kind of thing?

    Do you know what "pantheism" is?

    : I would say on collective expression of spirituality that even if many people gather together, I believe it's still a very personal thing.

    I dunno. I suppose at some level it is, but there also seems to be this idea among religions that, for example, the more people you have praying for something the more likely it is to come to pass.

    : : Funny, the more times I say the word, "church", the more strange it
    : : sounds.
    : That happens with quite a few words. :-)

    Yeah, I thought of that right as I was typing this statement.

    : Sure religion is subjective, because it's about our own personal beliefs! What I meant was that it wasn't nesecarily right from the start, but people who follow that religion BELIEVE it was. People believed the very earliest pagans were right at the time, maybe some still do...

    Ah, ok. Yes you are correct. Did you know there are still people who worship Odin, Thor, Freya, etc? The old Germanic gods? Nowadays they call themselves "Asatru". Weird.

    :Belief isn't knowledge. Then, what is knowledge?

    Someone far more intelligent than me once told me that the only things we "know" are what we learn through science (or a scientific process). I forget how the argument went but it made a lot of sense. Another very smart person I once chatted with makes a distinction between "belief in" and "belief that". For example, "I believe that the chair I'm sitting in will not collapse beneath me today" vs. "I believe in God". Despite many Christians insisting that both of these statements are equivalent expressions of "faith", they are semantically different. Primarily because the former can be tested and disproved if incorrect.

    : As for based entirely on traditions and customs and culture - I'd disagree.

    Ok, on "revelation" too.

    : : Python is like magic.
    : So he slams religion and then starts talking about magic... ;-)

    :-P

    : : It can either be a plain "scripting" language like your regular
    : : shell scripts, all the way through OO.
    : Sounds good. I like a language that's flexible like that and can fit into many situations.

    Python is fabulously flexible. The Pythonistas have started calling it an "agile" programming language.

    : : It's even more OO than Java or C# as it lets you create metaclasses,
    : : which are classes of classes.
    : C# allows you to have classes inside classes, or is this something different? I'm not familiar with the term "metaclasses".

    Java lets you have nested classes too. Python as well. Metaclasses are kind of another direction. A class is like a blueprint for objects, yes? Well, a metaclass is like a blueprint for classes. It gets very confusing and I don't fully understand it. In Python, when you execute a "class" statement, the interpreter creates a dictionary (hash table) of all the members and methods you specified in the class body and passes it to the metaclass of your class, which assembles a new object and assigns it to the name of your class. I suppose you could say that in Python, classes are instances of metaclasses and objects are instances of classes. Because classes themselves are a sort of object, you can use metaclasses to create new classes at runtime. I'm not sure why you might want to do that, but you can.

    : Sounds interesting. I'll have to give it a go.

    Cool, I'm the moderator at the Python board here if you have any questions.

    : Oh yeah, and we can't delete the whitespace in other languages and make our code look as though it might be BF? I think not.
    :
    : [code]from sys import*;from string import *;t,x,y,j,s,a=range(256),0,0,0,1,argv[1]
    : k=(map(lambda b:atoi(a[b:b+2],16), range(0,len(a),2))*256)[:256]
    : for i in t[:]:j=(k[i]+t[i]+j)%256;t[i],t[j]=t[j],t[i]
    : while(s):s=stdin.read(1);l,x=len(s),(x+1)%256;y,c=(y+t[x])%256,l and ord(s);(
    : t[x],t[y])=t[y],t[x];stdout.write(chr(c^t[(t[x]+t[y])%256])[:l])
    : [/code]
    :
    : Yeah, that's Python. Though I won't take that as a reason not to learn it! :-)

    Darn it, you!


    [size=5][italic][blue][RED]i[/RED]nfidel[/blue][/italic][/size]

  • : : As for nature being your church, yeah, I can kinda see that. Not
    : : sure how to explain it in other terms...maybe a bit like
    : : I "belong" to a certian group of people (e.g. a church) and
    : : you "belong" to nature kind of thing?
    :
    : Do you know what "pantheism" is?
    Nope, sorry. Though I'd like to.

    : : I would say on collective expression of spirituality that even if
    : : many people gather together, I believe it's still a very personal
    : : thing.
    :
    : I dunno. I suppose at some level it is, but there also seems to be
    : this idea among religions that, for example, the more people you
    : have praying for something the more likely it is to come to pass.
    Which I've never really quite got. I think at the end of the day it's God's will and if he doesn't want it, then it won't come to pass anyway. Then, there is the saying that says if you ask for something and it's what you need, then it will be given unto you...


    : : : Funny, the more times I say the word, "church", the more strange it
    : : : sounds.
    : : That happens with quite a few words. :-)
    :
    : Yeah, I thought of that right as I was typing this statement.


    : : Sure religion is subjective, because it's about our own personal
    : : beliefs! What I meant was that it wasn't nesecarily right from
    : : the start, but people who follow that religion BELIEVE it was.
    : : People believed the very earliest pagans were right at the time,
    : : maybe some still do...
    :
    : Ah, ok. Yes you are correct.
    What? I'm correct about something? Wow!

    : Did you know there are still people who worship Odin, Thor, Freya,
    : etc? The old Germanic gods? Nowadays they call themselves "Asatru". Weird.
    Curious...

    : : Belief isn't knowledge. Then, what is knowledge?
    :
    : Someone far more intelligent than me once told me that the only
    : things we "know" are what we learn through science (or a scientific
    : process).
    Then we don't know them. We just have plenty of evidence to support them. There could be evidence that goes against them that we just haven't found yet.

    : I forget how the argument went but it made a lot of sense.
    I'd love to hear it to see if it'd convince me.

    : Another very smart person I once chatted with makes a distinction
    : between "belief in" and "belief that". For example, "I believe that
    : the chair I'm sitting in will not collapse beneath me today" vs. "I
    : believe in God". Despite many Christians insisting that both of
    : these statements are equivalent expressions of "faith", they are
    : semantically different. Primarily because the former can be tested
    : and disproved if incorrect.
    OK. I believe THAT God exists and that he had a son called Jesus who was crucified, rose again in three days and saved my butt in doing so. Happy? :-)

    : : As for based entirely on traditions and customs and culture - I'd disagree.
    :
    : Ok, on "revelation" too.
    Now you're talking...

    : : : Python is like magic.
    : : So he slams religion and then starts talking about magic... ;-)
    : :-P
    :
    : : : It can either be a plain "scripting" language like your regular
    : : : shell scripts, all the way through OO.
    : : Sounds good. I like a language that's flexible like that and can
    : : fit into many situations.
    :
    : Python is fabulously flexible. The Pythonistas have started calling
    : it an "agile" programming language.
    Have heard various good comments on it, so I'll have to give it a go. In terms of flexibility sounds like the Perl I know and love.

    : : : It's even more OO than Java or C# as it lets you create metaclasses,
    : : : which are classes of classes.
    : : C# allows you to have classes inside classes, or is this something
    : : different? I'm not familiar with the term "metaclasses".
    :
    : Java lets you have nested classes too. Python as well. Metaclasses
    : are kind of another direction. A class is like a blueprint for
    : objects, yes? Well, a metaclass is like a blueprint for classes.
    : It gets very confusing and I don't fully understand it. In Python,
    : when you execute a "class" statement, the interpreter creates a
    : dictionary (hash table) of all the members and methods you specified
    : in the class body and passes it to the metaclass of your class,
    : which assembles a new object and assigns it to the name of your
    : class. I suppose you could say that in Python, classes are
    : instances of metaclasses and objects are instances of classes.
    : Because classes themselves are a sort of object, you can use
    : metaclasses to create new classes at runtime. I'm not sure why you
    : might want to do that, but you can.
    Guess maybe it's a bit like in Perl where you can add new methods to an object at runtime and stuff if you're cunning enough. I would agree that Perl's implementation of OOP isn't it's strongest area, though equally I do like the way it does it. An object is basically a blessed reference, meaning the reference gets associated with the package (namespace) that it is blessed into. The refernce can be a hash too, but your object can be based around other data structures too. Nice who Perl uses three existing concepts to implement it's OOP. If that ain't a good example of code re-use, I don't know what is!

    : : Sounds interesting. I'll have to give it a go.
    :
    : Cool, I'm the moderator at the Python board here if you have any
    : questions.
    And I'm not the moderator of the Perl board if you were to ever take a wander towards Perl...

    : : Oh yeah, and we can't delete the whitespace in other languages and
    : : make our code look as though it might be BF? I think not.
    : :
    : : [code]from sys import*;from string import *;t,x,y,j,s,a=range(256),0,0,0,1,argv[1]
    : : k=(map(lambda b:atoi(a[b:b+2],16), range(0,len(a),2))*256)[:256]
    : : for i in t[:]:j=(k[i]+t[i]+j)%256;t[i],t[j]=t[j],t[i]
    : : while(s):s=stdin.read(1);l,x=len(s),(x+1)%256;y,c=(y+t[x])%256,l and ord(s);(
    : : t[x],t[y])=t[y],t[x];stdout.write(chr(c^t[(t[x]+t[y])%256])[:l])
    : : [/code]
    : :
    : : Yeah, that's Python. Though I won't take that as a reason not to
    : : learn it! :-)
    :
    : Darn it, you!


    Jonathan

    ###
    for(74,117,115,116){$::a.=chr};(($_.='qwertyui')&&
    (tr/yuiqwert/her anot/))for($::b);for($::c){$_.=$^X;
    /(p.{2}l)/;$_=$1}$::b=~/(..)$/;print("$::a$::b $::c hack$1.");

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