I'm looking into learning C++ but some people are suggesting I should wait for .NET to be released (whenever that happens) and focus on C# and VB.NET. I was wondering if anyone would have any suggestions on which route I should take?

I know ASP, JavaScript, etc. for the web but I want to learn programming for something other then the internet. Like possible game programming. . .


any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

: I'm looking into learning C++ but some people are suggesting I should wait for .NET to be released (whenever that happens) and focus on C# and VB.NET. I was wondering if anyone would have any suggestions on which route I should take?
:
: I know ASP, JavaScript, etc. for the web but I want to learn programming for something other then the internet. Like possible game programming. . .

Learn C++. Waiting for .NET and focussing on C# would be just the thing to do if you wanted to continue your web focus. If you want to branch off and learn game programming, it's time to hunker down and learn a systems level programming language like C or C++.

: : I'm looking into learning C++ but some people are suggesting I should wait for .NET to be released (whenever that happens) and focus on C# and VB.NET. I was wondering if anyone would have any suggestions on which route I should take?
: :
: : I know ASP, JavaScript, etc. for the web but I want to learn programming for something other then the internet. Like possible game programming. . .
:
: Learn C++. Waiting for .NET and focussing on C# would be just the thing to do if you wanted to continue your web focus. If you want to branch off and learn game programming, it's time to hunker down and learn a systems level programming language like C or C++.
:

Thanks, for the input. . .
How hard is c/c++ to learn?

: How hard is c/c++ to learn?

Pretty hard, with C being the easier of the two (by a lot). It's a life long pursuit. But like Larry Wall says, it's like eating a banana. You don't shove the whole thing in your mouth and swallow it in one gulp. You would choke and die! You take a bite, and then another, with each bite motivating the next. Each bite is yummy and delicious all by itself. And before you know it, the banana is gone. Then you can go eat a pizza or something. ;)

Cheers,
Eric

: I'm looking into learning C++ but some people are suggesting I should wait for .NET to be released (whenever that happens) and focus on C# and VB.NET. I was wondering if anyone would have any suggestions on which route I should take?
:
: I know ASP, JavaScript, etc. for the web but I want to learn programming for something other then the internet. Like possible game programming. . .
:
:
: any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
:
:
:
Hail MS hail .NET hail C3

I feel exactly the opposite. I inherantly distrust everything made by Microsoft. I have yet to see a product of theirs that doesn't have an underhanded scheme influencing their design and marketing of it. Maybe I only see the schemes because of the tricks they've already pulled.

: I feel exactly the opposite. I inherantly distrust everything made by Microsoft. I have yet to see a product of theirs that doesn't have an underhanded scheme influencing their design and marketing of it. Maybe I only see the schemes because of the tricks they've already pulled.

Jeezz... they are no different than any other major corporation. They all have one motive: profit. They are required to have that motive. Companies that don't have really pissed off shareholders.

Fortunately, Microsoft's pursuit of profit has meant good software for us. All people see now is their monopoly, but they forget they we gave them that monopoly by choosing their products over the competition. If there was a better browser, office application suite, or desktop operating system, I would use it. I've seen coworkers whose prejuduce of Microsoft has driven them to try to use Linux as a desktop operating system, limping along with GIMP (no pun indented), Sun Office, and Netscape (Yuck!), and worse. It's pretty sad.

Yes, C# is Microsoft's answer to Java. Yet they have already handled C# with much more decorum and respect for the programming community than Sun ever did with Java. C# is already an international standard. Java will never be; Sun won't allow it (they've rejected two standards bodies). C# also happens to be a better language than Java.

Considering that Microsoft is a monopoly, and that they have the PC revolution over the proverbial barrel, we could be much worse off.

Cheers,
Eric

Hey, I like the GIMP, Linux (with Enlightenment as a WM), and Star Office (I have the 6.0 Beta now) :). I don't like Netscape, so I use Opera. I still have Win2K for games and testing, of course.

: Jeezz... they are no different than any other major
: corporation. They all have one motive: profit. They are
: required to have that motive. Companies that
: don't have really pissed off shareholders.

Unfortunetly that's true. That's the same reason I've began distrusting a number of other companies (Microsoft isn't the only one ;)).

: Hey, I like the GIMP, Linux (with Enlightenment as a WM), and Star Office (I have the 6.0 Beta now) :). I don't like Netscape, so I use Opera. I still have Win2K for games and testing, of course.

I use KDE 2, which is by far the most powerful WM so far, but it still falls far short of Windows. Star Office works, yeah. It's decent, and I use it. But it pales next to MS Office. I'm not being biased, just realistic. GIMP, again, it's decent editing tool, probably the best open source graphic manipulation tool the GPL community has to offer. But there are literally thousands of graphics manipulation tools available for Windows, many of which are far more powerful that GIMP.

I like Linux, too, but it is not a suitable replacement for Windows, and never will be. I used Linux all day at work. I run Redhat 7.1 on my desktop, and write code for racks containing hundreds of PCs all running Linux. It's a fantastic environment for anything network related, and for anything involving automation. However, you have to recognize it for what it is. If you want to argue about viability as and end-user desktop operating system, then Linux looks pathetic, and you risk overlooking the things that Linux is really good at.

: : Jeezz... they are no different than any other major
: : corporation. They all have one motive: profit. They are
: : required to have that motive. Companies that
: : don't have really pissed off shareholders.
:
: Unfortunetly that's true. That's the same reason I've began distrusting a number of other companies (Microsoft isn't the only one ;)).

I'm not sure I understand the meaning of the word 'trust' in relation to a company. What are you trusting them to do? Yes, perhaps C# is part of Microsoft plot to take over the world. Who cares?! If it's the most effective tool for a particular job, then you use it. You won't catch me using drill to pound in a nail just because the hammer is made by Microsoft.

Cheers,
Eric

I'm not saying that Linux is a desktop replacement for everyone, but it is good enough for me. I'm not even that hopeful that Linux will _ever_ be desktop replacement for everyone. So, I just try to give people options (all the software I write in my freetime is designed for platform independency) and not back them into any corners.

: I don't understand the meaning of the word 'trust' in relation to a company. What are you trusting them to do? Yes, perhaps C# is part of Microsoft plot to take over the world. Who cares?! If it's the most effective tool for a particular job, then you use it.

Even if it is the most effective tool, we can't rule out switching to an even better one in the future. You know how much people dislike change, so I try to keep myself and the things I interact (which is a lot, I know) with from relying on a single company's solution when I know that that dependency may be abused to restrict the available options in the future. If I trusted a company, I wouldn't have to do that. According to that I can say I distrust a lot of companies.

: You won't catch me using drill to pound in a nail just because the hammer is made by Microsoft.

I think reality is more complex than that example, but I see what you mean and I don't wholly disagree. I'm just worried about cases where people refuse to use the drill, because the hammer was made by Microsoft. Yeah, it doesn't make sense to me either, but it happens.

: : I don't understand the meaning of the word 'trust' in relation to a company. What are you trusting them to do? Yes, perhaps C# is part of Microsoft plot to take over the world. Who cares?! If it's the most effective tool for a particular job, then you use it.
:
: Even if it is the most effective tool, we can't rule out switching to an even better one in the future. You know how much people dislike change, so I try to keep myself and the things I interact (which is a lot, I know) with from relying on a single company's solution when I know that that dependency may be abused to restrict the available options in the future.

Well, I've written tons of code in Java, even though Java is owned by a single company. It's a useful tool. If Sun killed Java tomorrow, would I care? No. As a programmer, I feel I've learning something from my exposure to the Java language and it's libraries, even if knowing the language itself has no marketable value in the future.

You yourself have spent considerable energy to learn DirectX. You could have used OpenGL exclusively and maintained more platform neutrality, but writing games with DirectX has advantages (such as guaranteed driver support). Lots of programmers learn MFC, even though it ties their code to one specific compiler. The same goes for Visual Basic which (believe it or not) has far more programmers than any other language in the world, including C++ and Java combined. Lots of programmers love Delphi (me included), even though it, too, ties you to one product (and until recently, one OS). No one chastises Delphi programmers for using it, because Delphi is not owned by the Evil Empire. Where does C# fit into all this? It's just another tool. For its particular application, RAD Windows development, it's great. Choosing to use it (or not) doesn't have to be a Big Deal.

: : You won't catch me using drill to pound in a nail just because the hammer is made by Microsoft.
:
: I think reality is more complex than that example, but I see what you mean and I don't wholly disagree.

For a lot of people, it's not more complex than that. I know a lot of people that still use Netscape, who haven't even tried I.E., because they feel like they're backing the underdog or something. Me, I don't care who writes the damn browser, but I do want to use the best one. I used Netscape until I.E. 5, at which point I.E. was clearly the superior technology. As simple as that.

Cheers,
Eric

: You yourself have spent considerable energy to learn DirectX. You could have used OpenGL exclusively and maintained more platform neutrality...

I _do_ use OpenGL, I don't really know much about DirectX 8.0. I use OpenGL alongside SDL and my engine compiles without changes outside of Windows. I also avoid using Delphi, Java, and VB because they're owned by a specific vendor. Java I'm more neutral to than the others because there are methods of using it that have nothing to do with Sun. I've never really liked Pascal anyway (just a personal preference, not anything special), but I still suggest people use it sometimes because Pascal is vendor independent (although Delphi kind of isn't).

: I used Netscape until I.E. 5, at which point I.E. was clearly the superior technology.

Same here. I found Opera about 4 monthes ago and started using it. We're a lot more like each other than you're thinking, I just take a different spin on the same stance :).

I hear that!!!!!
---------------------------------------------
I've got a plan, but I'm going to need a dead monkey, some empty liquor bottles, and a vacuum cleaner.

you will also want to note the fee's m$ recently announced for developing on their .nEt plan,....
and yes it is an attempt to control the internet ...
anyone notice the slip when MSN blocked most all but IE browsers ?

i say dont waste your time with C#, it will go the way of J++

: i say dont waste your time with C#, it will go the way of J++

J++ was one of the best Java development tools on the market (fastest compiler by far). The only reason it died was because Sun sued it to death. C# is a very cool language, and it has some big guns backing it (not just Microsoft); it's not going anywhere.

Cheers,
Eric

C# is a very cool language, and it has some big guns backing it (not just Microsoft); it's not going anywhere.
:
: Cheers,
: Eric

mmmmm...wishful thinking of another microsoft drone.
freedom is out there man, open your eyes...

cheers
int_21h

: : C# is a very cool language, and it has some big guns backing it (not just Microsoft); it's not going anywhere.
:
: mmmmm...wishful thinking of another microsoft drone.
: freedom is out there man, open your eyes...

It's not wishful thinking, it's an observation. I have used C#, and I know most of the languages that inspired it, most notably Delphi, Java and C++. It is an excellent language; it was created by the brilliant Anders Hejlsber, who also created Delphi for Borland. If you don't want to be just another anti-Microsoft drone, you will learn something about the language yourself before blindly dismissing it solely because Microsoft paid for it's development.

I'm not a Microsoft evangelist - I don't care who makes the tools I use. I don't have any emotional loyalties to or biases against Microsoft, but I must admit the all mindless parroting of the Bill Gates is the Devil rhetoric gets old. If you want to call me a drone for claiming that C# is a good language, then tell me why it is not.

Cheers,
Eric

I must take multiple sides here. Eric, you have been someone who has answered my questions many times before. And, I higly respect your intelligence and agree with using the best tool fit. The same to Null and Void! What do I use? C++ (Borland). Why? Because I like it more than MSVC++. I am no fan of M$. Everyone knows what they have done. But, I don't hate them for it b/c they did what they thought they had to, and they have some happy ass shareholders right now. As for .NET/C# - I am no expert on either of these, I doubt either is going away anytime soon w/o a major major court decision. I try and avoid single-OS languages, not because they are made by one company or another. I just feel too limited. When I have mastered C++ to some extent, then I will probably learn C#. As for the original question - in my eyes, C++ is the most power of C/C++/C#. C# is made for .NET, and for .NET only. C - a great language, but lacks a lot of the new features of C++. It all comes down to what you want to do - if you want to code for .NET and windoze - then go with C#. If you want versatility and power - C/C++ (I recommend C++). This is all from a intermediate programmer, and follows no path. Just random rambling =)

-Matt

: : : C# is a very cool language, and it has some big guns backing it (not just Microsoft); it's not going anywhere.
: :
: : mmmmm...wishful thinking of another microsoft drone.
: : freedom is out there man, open your eyes...
:
: It's not wishful thinking, it's an observation. I have used C#, and I know most of the languages that inspired it, most notably Delphi, Java and C++. It is an excellent language; it was created by the brilliant Anders Hejlsber, who also created Delphi for Borland. If you don't want to be just another anti-Microsoft drone, you will learn something about the language yourself before blindly dismissing it solely because Microsoft paid for it's development.
:
: I'm not a Microsoft evangelist - I don't care who makes the tools I use. I don't have any emotional loyalties to or biases against Microsoft, but I must admit the all mindless parroting of the Bill Gates is the Devil rhetoric gets old. If you want to call me a drone for claiming that C# is a good language, then tell me why it is not.
:
: Cheers,
: Eric
:

: I am no fan of M$.

Thanks for being honest and admitting your bias up front. ;)

: As for the original question - in my eyes, C++ is the most power of C/C++/C#. C# is made for .NET, and for .NET only. C - a great language, but lacks a lot of the new features of C++. It all comes down to what you want to do - if you want to code for .NET and windoze - then go with C#. If you want versatility and power - C/C++ (I recommend C++).

Agreed on both counts.

You can't touch C++ for versatility. C++ can go anywhere an ANSI C compiler can - which is pretty much anything with a CPU. However, "power" is a relative term, and needs a context to be meaningful. If you are developing multi-tiered, Internet-enabled business applications for Windows, the C# programmer wields the most power by far. While the C++ programmer is trying to track down wild pointer bugs, the C# programming is writing COM servers in 3 lines of code. He doesn't even know what "memory management" is - his language doesn't require him to. Whole categories of insidious, show-stopper bugs that can occur in C++ are not even possible in C#. On the other hand, if you are developing device drivers, or writing code for Palm Pilot, or writing for the Mac - the C# programmer cannot even play. His language doesn't go there at all. Who has the most power depends on what you're trying to do.

Cheers,
Eric

I agree with you on the power part - I guess my definition of power was based on versatility. As in, the power to pretty much do anything - whether it is the best tool to use or not =) I am not a fan of M$ - but, when they set their minds to something they do a good job of it for the most part, and I don't think anyone can doubt that! I use windows, I use ms office, I use outlook express, I use IE. I could use others, but why? When those are the easiest to use and have the most features? If some one can show me a program of that nature that is better, I will glady use it. But, until then, I'm going to use the best I've found! I do prefer Borland Builder over MSVC++ though!

: : I am no fan of M$.
:
: Thanks for being honest and admitting your bias up front. ;)
:
: : As for the original question - in my eyes, C++ is the most power of C/C++/C#. C# is made for .NET, and for .NET only. C - a great language, but lacks a lot of the new features of C++. It all comes down to what you want to do - if you want to code for .NET and windoze - then go with C#. If you want versatility and power - C/C++ (I recommend C++).
:
: Agreed on both counts.
:
: You can't touch C++ for versatility. C++ can go anywhere an ANSI C compiler can - which is pretty much anything with a CPU. However, "power" is a relative term, and needs a context to be meaningful. If you are developing multi-tiered, Internet-enabled business applications for Windows, the C# programmer wields the most power by far. While the C++ programmer is trying to track down wild pointer bugs, the C# programming is writing COM servers in 3 lines of code. He doesn't even know what "memory management" is - his language doesn't require him to. Whole categories of insidious, show-stopper bugs that can occur in C++ are not even possible in C#. On the other hand, if you are developing device drivers, or writing code for Palm Pilot, or writing for the Mac - the C# programmer cannot even play. His language doesn't go there at all. Who has the most power depends on what you're trying to do.
:
: Cheers,
: Eric
:
: