'Where'd Everbunny Go?' Thread RSS Feed

Where'd Everbunny Go?

Thu, 16 Jan 2003 23:12:18 -0700

Greetings...

This place used to be jumpin'... wha'happened? Surely there's a government or a religion or a war or something we can argue about...

Or maybe I should just start talking about my personal life again. That seems to irritate people enough to respond...

Take Care.
Cody

Re: Where'd Everbunny Go?

Fri, 17 Jan 2003 07:05:53 -0700

Hi!

: This place used to be jumpin'... wha'happened? Surely there's a
: government or a religion or a war or something we
: can argue about...
I'm still here! So something to argue about...hmmm.... How about the question of what do we define as science? And is there any difference between putting your faith blindly in science that in its nature cannot be proved, but only disproved, and following some kind of religion?

: Or maybe I should just start talking about my personal life again.
: That seems to irritate people enough to respond...
LOL! I can...uh...hardly wait.

Jonathan

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now you're pushing my buttons

Fri, 17 Jan 2003 08:03:54 -0700

: I'm still here! So something to argue about...hmmm.... How about the question of what do we define as science? And is there any difference between putting your faith blindly in science that in its nature cannot be proved, but only disproved, and following some kind of religion?

Putting your faith blindly in anything is foolish, IMO. As I've spent a lot of time in Christian chat rooms, I have seen fools on both sides of the aisle. On the one hand are the hyperchristians who believe is such balderdash as faith healing (a la Benny Hinn) and other assorted "miracles", and on the other are the antichristians who hold up science as their alternative religion just to not be Christians. It's sad because the latter are easily squashed in debate with the former, leading the former to conclude that all lovers of science are like the latter. Although to be fair, it is also sad that the behavior of the former tends to make others think all Christians are like that.

I heard a speaker on Christian radio the other night explaining "Why I am not an Atheist". It was the standard tripe. He basically said that Atheism and Darwinism are the causes of Soviet Socialism, Nazi Fascism, society's moral decay, hedonism, hopelessness and despair. It makes me mad, not because he's an idiot, but because people like him make it harder for people like me to discuss things rationally with people who listen to people like him. I've done it hundreds of times before and probably will do it hundreds of times in the future. It just takes so long to have to break through all the stereotypes and misinformation over and over again for each new Xian-Borg that comes along. Ah well, I do have to feed my skeptomasochistic side once in a while.

infidel

Re: Where'd Everbunny Go?

Fri, 17 Jan 2003 09:20:33 -0700

well, im here as well. Not on the VB board anymore since i can't stand idiots that don't even f**king bother to check the MSDN. I just read a post about a question on how to use the pattern for file list boxes. Well, i don't know the answer right now, but after a brief look-up in the MSDN i would find the sollution even faster then waiting for some idiot (not me anymore) to respond to such a question.

Im starting to believe that many VBers are very lame and they may be smart but they are too lazy to use it.

Someone else asked how he could remove network adapters. Well, posts like that are a lot better though i dont know the answer. Can anyone believe why i had a change of attitude against the VB community?

I really think that questions about syntax and function(or object) arguments should be deleted as soon as they're spotted on the board.

Ha, i remember some maniac asking something about the MID function. Well, whats to ask about that?

sad....

Greetings...
:
: This place used to be jumpin'... wha'happened? Surely there's a government or a religion or a war or something we can argue about...
:
: Or maybe I should just start talking about my personal life again. That seems to irritate people enough to respond...
:
: Take Care.
: Cody
:

DarQ

Re: Where'd Everbunny Go?

Fri, 17 Jan 2003 12:35:46 -0700

Can anyone believe why i had a change of attitude against the VB community?
:
: I really think that questions about syntax and function(or object) arguments How about arrays? should be deleted as soon as they're spotted on the board.
:

Re: Where'd Everbunny Go?

Fri, 17 Jan 2003 13:57:45 -0700

Hehehe, that's why practically every reply I put up includes the words "hit the documentation" at some point.

I try to never simply give the answer, unless there is a compelling reason to (which happens very infrequently; the ShellExecute question was an example, because that's a bugger to find if you don't know how to navigate the registry). Instead, what I do is simply direct them to the appropriate section of the MSDN and tell them to read it. I understand the the MSDN library can be a bit intimidating (Microsoft is many things, but "well-organized" is not on the list), so I don't feel bad about directing them to a page... but I'll be durned if I'm going to do their work for them. I get paid for knowing this stuff, you know.

Plus... I know how they feel. The few questions I've asked on the board got no replies at all... (I'm hoping it's because everyone else was just as stumped as I was, and not because everyone thought I was lame for asking...)

Actually, my company hardly ever works in Visual Basic anymore, so I really troll this board more out of nostalgia than anything else. It seems like this month, we're almost a dedicated XML company...

Take Care.
Cody

Re: now you're pushing my buttons

Fri, 17 Jan 2003 14:00:07 -0700

The main difference between religion and science for me is empiricism. Fact of the matter is, both can be wrong... both require a certain amount of faith in the process... but science, at least, includes a mechanism for finding errors and correcting them. Scientific dogma can change, if empirical investigation requires it. Religious dogma... well...

Take Care.
Cody

Re: Where'd Everbunny Go?

Sat, 18 Jan 2003 06:45:03 -0700

lion, if this has been ment jokingly, then so be it. On the other hand, array's can be very difficult to use and i didnt' mention them in my list did i? Certain stuff bout arrays are 'ok' questions.

: Can anyone believe why i had a change of attitude against the VB community?
: :
: : I really think that questions about syntax and function(or object) arguments How about arrays? should be deleted as soon as they're spotted on the board.
: :
:
:

DarQ

Re: Where'd Everbunny Go?

Sat, 18 Jan 2003 06:50:14 -0700

Ah, well. I dont reply to every message. VB is not very complicated but i simply do not know everything. I can USE (almost) everything. Just some MSDN reading and i know HOW to use certain things. If they ask real programming questions then i will almost always read them. But most of the time i cannot reply because i simply do not know how to use some VB shit for their problem.

VB is IMHO the lamest progging lang i have ever learned. On 1 hand it is too simple and pays of too little. On the other hand, it so big! There are so many api's and functions i have never heard of.

I prefer to low level progging languages. After knowing (example) all the Z80 instructions, i could code everything. Ok, i also needed to know how to use the VDP (video processor). Thats all!

I love those languages with just a few options/functions/stuff. VB requires to much mind-space.

: Hehehe, that's why practically every reply I put up includes the words "hit the documentation" at some point.
:
: I try to never simply give the answer, unless there is a compelling reason to (which happens very infrequently; the ShellExecute question was an example, because that's a bugger to find if you don't know how to navigate the registry). Instead, what I do is simply direct them to the appropriate section of the MSDN and tell them to read it. I understand the the MSDN library can be a bit intimidating (Microsoft is many things, but "well-organized" is not on the list), so I don't feel bad about directing them to a page... but I'll be durned if I'm going to do their work for them. I get paid for knowing this stuff, you know.
:
: Plus... I know how they feel. The few questions I've asked on the board got no replies at all... (I'm hoping it's because everyone else was just as stumped as I was, and not because everyone thought I was lame for asking...)
:
: Actually, my company hardly ever works in Visual Basic anymore, so I really troll this board more out of nostalgia than anything else. It seems like this month, we're almost a dedicated XML company...
:
: Take Care.
: Cody
:
:

DarQ

Re: Where'd Everbunny Go?

Sat, 18 Jan 2003 09:04:46 -0700

: VB is IMHO the lamest progging lang i have ever learned. On 1 hand
: it is too simple and pays of too little. On the other hand, it so
: big! There are so many api's and functions i have never heard of.

I know what you mean... When Microsoft wanted to create a programming language for simple Windows development, I'm not convinced that BASIC was their best choice. I guess it's no wonder they've had to beef it up a bit (e.g. for VB.NET). Though with reference to VB.NET, it's not exactly normal to extend a language by cutting away from its existing codebase!

As for APIs - they ain't just a VB thing, but a Windows thing in general. The Windows API is pretty wide-ranging in general and, best of all, M$ didn't bother documenting all of it. Typical...

I remember being in a college class where they were teaching VB. I can tell you first hand it isn't the best language to start people off on and many people struggled where a tighter language would have forced them to write better code rather than the messier things you can throw together in VB.

Just my opinons, of course. And VB does have it's uses - it's probably the best thing I've found for building a good UI and if connected to a good database engine it has applications there for providing a quick frontend to the data.

One more thing...has anyone else noticed VB.NET has been brought closer to what M$ launched C#.NET for? Strange how they are brining the two closer, you'd think they might want two more clearly defined products. Or maybe they have long term "plans" for VB...

Jonathan

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Re: now you're pushing my buttons

Sat, 18 Jan 2003 09:18:45 -0700

Hi,

Well I agree putting your faith blindly in anything isn't the way to go - I certainly like to have some form of evidence before I'll believe whatever that may be.

Personally I'm a Christian and I am very interested in science. I think it's sad many people see the two as incompatible, I don't wanna judge anyone but I'm guess there may be people in my church who think science is evil. I guess there are then "scientists" who think that religion is stupid too.

We'll never be able to prove there is a God during our time on earth, and we'll never be able to prove any scientific fact. It takes an infinite number of experiemnts to prove a theory, but only one that doesn't match it to disprove it. And religion is faith so we can't prove there is a God - if we knew it wouldn't be faith I guess - but can religion be disproved? I guess if it's based on facts that there is significant evidence against, then I'd say you may well be able to. However, I think you can't prove there isn't a God, thus you can't disprove what a lot of religions point to. So while you may able to say "that religion seems to have got it wrong", I don't think you can say "there is no God".

As for religious dogma - may I suggest that because a religion may be based on teachings that are as relevant today as they were thousands of years ago, they were in the believers point of view right from the start and right now and right until kingdom come, and thus there is no need for change. I think that the problem there can be is people's interpretation of a certain religious teaching, and an interpretation can be incorrect. Thus, I believe that if someone could show me I'd interpretted a part of the bible wrongly, I'd change my attitudes accordingly.

Anyway, that's a bit of my mind. Hmmm...time for chilli con carne with potato wedges. Yummy...

Take care y'all,

Jonathan

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Re: Where'd Everbunny Go?

Sat, 18 Jan 2003 09:48:23 -0700

: lion, if this has been ment jokingly, then so be it.
:
Sure it was
:
On the other hand, array's can be very difficult to use
Don't think so
and i didnt' mention them in my list did i?
and I was wondering why
Certain stuff bout arrays are 'ok' questions.
:
Now I know

Re: Where'd Everbunny Go?

Sat, 18 Jan 2003 10:07:28 -0700

: On the other hand, array's can be very difficult to use
: Don't think so

Personally, I find arrays easier to use than the MSDN...

Jonathan

Re: Where'd Everbunny Go?

Sat, 18 Jan 2003 11:55:30 -0700

To get things straigt, i havent had difficulties with arrays.

: : On the other hand, array's can be very difficult to use
: : Don't think so
:
: Personally, I find arrays easier to use than the MSDN...
:
: Jonathan
:
:
:

DarQ

Re: Where'd Everbunny Go?

Sat, 18 Jan 2003 14:00:42 -0700

This message was edited by lionb at 2003-1-18 14:4:21

This message was edited by lionb at 2003-1-18 14:2:18

:: Personally, I find arrays easier to use than the MSDN...
:
: Jonathan
:
Me too but sometimes I have some trouble trying to assign array to nothing
:

Re: Where'd Everbunny Go?

Mon, 20 Jan 2003 02:23:43 -0700

: :: Personally, I find arrays easier to use than the MSDN...
: :
: : Jonathan
: :
: Me too but sometimes I have some trouble trying to assign array to nothing

Mark.. You will never escape this Array issue. I think even your best man will mention it in his speech.

On the points about the main board. I agree.. there are far too much lameness and pure boneidle people on there. The questions I really really hate are when people mention making some dumb hunting game or something as equally sad.

On religion... I think...believe what you wan't...Just dont try and force it on anyone else. That mormon quote was extremly irritating. As I have mentioned before... I follow the moral rules of Taoism, but I have no intention of attempting to make anyone else think the same.

On VB. Well, I want to use c#... but I'm not allowed. VB is a good RAD tool if you can remember lots of things. Last week I managed to condense 5 days of programming in to 2.5 days so we could meet phase #1 deadline. I'm not looking forward to the code review though. Yeah anoter thing. VBA should be banned. VbScript should be banned. Access should be banned.. The offices where Crystal reports is developed should be set on fire. All backups of their source code should melt and all client side CR DLL's should expire by the end of this month.

Anyway.. good morning.

Sorry Mark

Mon, 20 Jan 2003 08:05:59 -0700

: Mark.. You will never escape this Array issue. I think even your best man will mention it in his speech.
:
I did not want to hurt you. It was my last joke about arrays, I promiss

Re: now you're pushing my buttons

Tue, 21 Jan 2003 07:40:08 -0700

: Personally I'm a Christian and I am very interested in science. I think it's sad many people see the two as incompatible, I don't wanna judge anyone but I'm guess there may be people in my church who think science is evil. I guess there are then "scientists" who think that religion is stupid too.

I chatted with a woman online once who was Christian and worked as a chemist. She told me that before every experiment she does, she prays to God that she gets the proper results and the experiment works properly. Not only is this unbelievably ridiculous, it goes against the very nature of being a scientist! I just couldn't make her understand that there are no "right" results, and that it is in doing an experiment and ending up with something unexpected that new things are learned.

: but can religion be disproved?

This is key. Religion (as in belief in God) cannot be disproved. It is unfalsifiable. This is exactly why it is not science and why the creationists and intelligent designists are full of crap.

: may I suggest that because a religion may be based on teachings that are as relevant today as they were thousands of years ago,

"As relevant" is relative. I could just as easily say Aesop's fables are just as relevant today as they were long ago. Big fat hairy deal. As humans there are certain things common to us all and certain ideas/beliefs that seem important enough to the survival of the species that they are effectively part of our genes.

: they were in the believers point of view right from the start and right now and right until kingdom come, and thus there is no need for change.

This is simply arrogance on the part of religionists, probably combined with fear (of doubt).

: I think that the problem there can be is people's interpretation of a certain religious teaching, and an interpretation can be incorrect. Thus, I believe that if someone could show me I'd interpretted a part of the bible wrongly, I'd change my attitudes accordingly.

But it's still interpretation and as such entirely subjective and leads to endless debates about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. As you said before, faith can't be disproven. How then could someone show your belief to be incorrect?

infidel

Re: Where'd Everbunny Go?

Tue, 21 Jan 2003 07:43:24 -0700

: One more thing...has anyone else noticed VB.NET has been brought closer to what M$ launched C#.NET for? Strange how they are brining the two closer, you'd think they might want two more clearly defined products. Or maybe they have long term "plans" for VB...

Not that strange when you consider that .NET has one language, the bytecode. Any .NET language therefore must compile to that bytecode so would necessarily have very similar semantics even if the syntaxes are different.

infidel

Re: Where'd Everbunny Go?

Tue, 21 Jan 2003 09:25:43 -0700

my opinion:

:VBA should be banned. VbScript should be banned. Access should be banned.. The offices where Crystal reports is developed should be set on fire. All backups of their source code should melt and all client side CR DLL's should expire by the end of this month.
:
: Anyway.. good morning.
:
:
:

DarQ

Re: now you're pushing my buttons

Sun, 26 Jan 2003 09:55:38 -0700

Hey there,

Been a while I know...I've been bogged down with exams and work.

: I chatted with a woman online once who was Christian and worked as a chemist. She told me that before every experiment she does, she prays to God that she gets the proper results and the experiment works properly. Not only is this unbelievably ridiculous, it goes against the very nature of being a scientist! I just couldn't make her understand that there are no "right" results, and that it is in doing an experiment and ending up with something unexpected that new things are learned.

Crazy... If I were to do an experiment I'd hope it will give unexpected results - those not predicted by theory. An experiment that agrees with a theory (e.g. gives the "right" results - but only right for that particular circumstance) is a bit pointless. It's those that don't which advance what we know, which is for me what I feel science should be about.

: This is key. Religion (as in belief in God) cannot be disproved. It is unfalsifiable. This is exactly why it is not science and why the creationists and intelligent designists are full of crap.

I don't see what the big problem with creationism is at one level, and agree with it to a point, but when people start saying "ah, natural selection can't be right" and "the big bang didn't happen 'cus God made the world" and all that lot, it can get to me. The big bang isn't incompatible with biblical teaching - infact is IS compatible. The theory says the universe has a beginning, so does the bible. There are other quotes, one which appears to be talking about the universe expanding, which we know it is. People think evolutionism can eliminate their need for a God - if they think that then it's only becuase of their ignorance IMHO...

: "As relevant" is relative. I could just as easily say Aesop's fables are just as relevant today as they were long ago. Big fat hairy deal. As humans there are certain things common to us all and certain ideas/beliefs that seem important enough to the survival of the species that they are effectively part of our genes.

Point taken...different people see different things as relative. So someone who isn't a Christian, the bible is most probably going to be completely irrelevant. Personally, through my life experience, I think that the bible has a LOT to say about the right way to live life. In my view, even if the thing is a load of crap, which who knows it could well be and I can only hope not, then I'm happy with the way I am living my life anyway. I think the way to live presented in the bible is a good way to live, though some would beg to differ. Particularly those who's happinness is centered around getting drunk and getting laid.

: : they were in the believers point of view right from the start and right now and right until kingdom come, and thus there is no need for change.
:
: This is simply arrogance on the part of religionists, probably combined with fear (of doubt).

Or is it that simple? I think if you believe there is a God who is all wise, then it's innevitable that you're going to hold some beleif of this nature... And as we already said, nobody can disprove that there is a God.

: But it's still interpretation and as such entirely subjective and leads to endless debates about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. As you said before, faith can't be disproven. How then could someone show your belief to be incorrect?

I'm not saying they could show my beliefs to be incorrect. But suppose I was ignorant to a part of the teachings of my faith and was living my life not in accordance with those teachings. If somebody showed me what the bible etc said, then I could change my attitudes accordingly (PROVIDED I thought they had a point, I think it's not wise to take at face value).

I would like to add one thing... I don't know how right or wrong this may be to say (theologically), but it's my opinion. I have more respect for the beliefs of someone who has thought over the entire God thing properly and come to their own conclusion, even if that conclusion is that they believe there is no God or in something else, than if they just came to church because they thought it was the right thing to do and never really bothered to think about what they really believe. Just thought I'd throw that in.

Heck, pretty heavy stuff this!

Take care,

Jonathan

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Re: now you're pushing my buttons

Mon, 27 Jan 2003 08:37:53 -0700

: Been a while I know...I've been bogged down with exams and work.

Tell me about it. We're going "live" in a week. It's crazy here.

: I don't see what the big problem with creationism is at one level, and agree with it to a point, but when people start saying "ah, natural selection can't be right" and "the big bang didn't happen 'cus God made the world" and all that lot, it can get to me. The big bang isn't incompatible with biblical teaching - infact is IS compatible. The theory says the universe has a beginning, so does the bible. There are other quotes, one which appears to be talking about the universe expanding, which we know it is.

The problem with creationism isn't creationism, it's the creationists. The arrogant fools who think their dogma should be taught in public schools. And those who believe that ideas such as evolution are the source of all modern evil. It's these people that really get to me.

People think evolutionism can eliminate their need for a God - if they think that then it's only becuase of their ignorance IMHO...

Well those people annoy me too. Almost moreso than the hyperchristians. They just reinforce the religionists' views that evolutionists are anti-god heathens.

: Point taken...different people see different things as relative. So someone who isn't a Christian, the bible is most probably going to be completely irrelevant.

I wouldn't say that. I think the Bible is interesting. And it's certainly helpful to know some of it given how influential it's been on Western culture.

Personally, through my life experience, I think that the bible has a LOT to say about the right way to live life. In my view, even if the thing is a load of crap, which who knows it could well be and I can only hope not, then I'm happy with the way I am living my life anyway.

I see it like this... If you take the Bible and strip away all of mythology, the cultural ideosyncracies, the legends, and the supernatural, you're left with some basic stuff about morality and the human condition. Probably none of which is unique or special to the Bible and can be found in writings or traditions from around the world. This, I feel, is why some think the Bible is universal truth. Not because it is the source of truth but because it contains truths common to humans.

I think the way to live presented in the bible is a good way to live, though some would beg to differ. Particularly those who's happinness is centered around getting drunk and getting laid.

Well those people are just stupid, IMO, anyways.

: Or is it that simple? I think if you believe there is a God who is all wise, then it's innevitable that you're going to hold some beleif of this nature... And as we already said, nobody can disprove that there is a God.

And nobody can prove there is one.

: I'm not saying they could show my beliefs to be incorrect. But suppose I was ignorant to a part of the teachings of my faith and was living my life not in accordance with those teachings. If somebody showed me what the bible etc said, then I could change my attitudes accordingly (PROVIDED I thought they had a point, I think it's not wise to take at face value).

I understand what you're saying, it's just that I think it's strange to take a book of writings thousands of years old as the source of truth. Why does something have to be in the Bible for you to accept it as a reason to change your attitude or belief?

: I would like to add one thing... I don't know how right or wrong this may be to say (theologically), but it's my opinion. I have more respect for the beliefs of someone who has thought over the entire God thing properly and come to their own conclusion, even if that conclusion is that they believe there is no God or in something else, than if they just came to church because they thought it was the right thing to do and never really bothered to think about what they really believe. Just thought I'd throw that in.

I appreciate that. I grew up in a moderately religious family. Every sunday we went to church and sunday school, and there was midweek bible school and vacation bible school and all the other assorted activities at your standard American protestant church. I know that I enjoyed sunday school at times, I can remember having fun with various crafts, but the regular church service always bored me.

Although my parents were (still are) religious, they were also very liberal. They were both teachers, too, and were very supportive of public education in which I excelled. At some point, around first grade, I think, like most young boys I became enthralled by dinosaurs. It was about that time that the cognitive dissonance started causing me to question things. I passed through various phases. Starting with "Genesis is correct", moving through the "a day in Genesis just represents millions of years" and "Genesis is a metaphor", and ultimately settling on the fairly safe belief that "people back then just didn't know what we know now". I did all of this pretty much on my own without realizing it.

Then, sometime during second or third grade, my father told me not to speak of dinosaurs around my grandparents. As he put it, "some people do not believe in dinosaurs." I can still hear my brain shifting gears without a clutch. That really bothered me (and still does to some extent).

As I got older, I became less and less interested in church activities. I felt like the whole "confirmation" thing in junior high was a complete waste of time, and by the time I got to high school, I really would've preferred to sleep through sunday mornings altogether. My parents thought that I'd like to be part of the congregation at the university campus church for our particular denomination and so they took me to services there for a few weeks before I moved in to the dorm. Once school started I never went back.

Up until my last year at the university, starting all the way back on that trip to my grandparents' house, I was increasingly troubled by the conflict between what I could see was true with my own eyes and what I was told was true by people I trusted. I was constantly bothered by the "what if it really is all true?" feelings constantly nagging at my utter lack of belief. I finally had enough. I decided there's nothing wrong with not believing in God. Much to my surprise, that little shift in attitude has made my life amazingly happy. No more torment. And I was even more surprised to find a community of like minded people does exist out there.

: Heck, pretty heavy stuff this!

amen

infidel

Re: now you're pushing my buttons

Tue, 28 Jan 2003 07:25:55 -0700

: : I chatted with a woman online once who was Christian and worked as a chemist. She told me that before every experiment she does, she prays to God that she gets the proper results and the experiment works properly. Not only is this unbelievably ridiculous, it goes against the very nature of being a scientist! I just couldn't make her understand that there are no "right" results, and that it is in doing an experiment and ending up with something unexpected that new things are learned.
:
: Crazy... If I were to do an experiment I'd hope it will give unexpected results - those not predicted by theory.
An experiment that agrees with a theory (e.g. gives the "right" results - but only right for that particular circumstance) is a bit pointless.
I've been in scientific field about 20 years. That's why I can say that this is not quite correct. Scientists used that way back to 19th century. Not any more. There are a lot different powerful tools around (e.g. like math models) that allow scientists may be not predict but at list expect some certain result. Besides most modern experiments is conducted after some theoretical work. Most modern experiments require a lot of money (e.g. for equipment and other stuff). No one will give money to scientist to conduct experiment-using way 'Let's do it and see what'll happen'. Believe me, no one. At the same time, it happened before, it happens now and it will happen always, scientists received unpredictable results very often because of very different reasons. I thing, any result is useful no matter is it positive, negative or unexpectable. About infidel's story. I think,MPO, there is nothing wrong that lady prayed to God to get the proper result. Every scientist, religious or not, are always hopping/praying to get result that they want. The problem is, if that lady's got expectable result, she's thought it happened because she praid hard and God helped her. This is completely wrong!!! That's why I've never understood how scientist may be religious.

It's those that don't which advance what we know, which is for me what I feel science should be about.
:

Re: now you're pushing my buttons

Sat, 01 Feb 2003 16:22:32 -0700

: Tell me about it. We're going "live" in a week. It's crazy here.
Going live in a week is never a problem if you're ready to go live in a week... <grins>

: The problem with creationism isn't creationism, it's the
: creationists. The arrogant fools who think their dogma should be
: taught in public schools. And those who believe that ideas such as
: evolution are the source of all modern evil. It's these people that
: really get to me.
And why shouldn't the idea of creationism be presented as an alternative opinion in schools? Whey the arrogant presumption that evolution is the be-all-and-end-all theory that attempts to answer the question of why we're here? Creationism hasn't been disproved yet, people just prefer eveolution as a theory.

: People think evolutionism can eliminate their need for a God - if they think that then it's only becuase of their ignorance IMHO...
:
: Well those people annoy me too. Almost moreso than the
: hyperchristians. They just reinforce the religionists' views that
: evolutionists are anti-god heathens.
Yeah, I see what your getting at. And this links back in with what I said in answer to the last question...

: : Point taken...different people see different things as
: relative. So someone who isn't a Christian, the bible is most
: probably going to be completely irrelevant.
:
: I wouldn't say that. I think the Bible is interesting. And
: it's certainly helpful to know some of it given how influential it's
: been on Western culture.
Yeah, good point. I think I was way out on that one...just because someone isn't a Christian doesn't mean they won't read or take interest in what is in the bible, even if they don't think it's God's word.

: Personally, through my life experience, I think that the bible
: has a LOT to say about the right way to live life. In my view, even
: if the thing is a load of crap, which who knows it could well be and
: I can only hope not, then I'm happy with the way I am living my life
: anyway.
:
: I see it like this... If you take the Bible and strip away
: all of mythology, the cultural ideosyncracies, the legends, and the
: supernatural, you're left with some basic stuff about morality and
: the human condition. Probably none of which is unique or special to
: the Bible and can be found in writings or traditions from around the
: world. This, I feel, is why some think the Bible is universal
: truth. Not because it is the source of truth but because it
: contains truths common to humans.
If you strip away the supernatural stuff, then it can't be God's word anymore. As for mythology and legends - I think this is a more subjective issue. Your legend might be my truth, if you get me. As for cultural ideosyncracies, I don't know that I can argue the bible is free of those...

: I think the way to live presented in the bible is a good way
: to live, though some would beg to differ. Particularly those who's
: happinness is centered around getting drunk and getting laid.
:
: Well those people are just stupid, IMO, anyways.
Amen... Either stupid or misguided.

: : Or is it that simple? I think if you believe there is a God
: who is all wise, then it's innevitable that you're going to hold
: some beleif of this nature... And as we already said, nobody can
: disprove that there is a God.
:
: And nobody can prove there is one.
And nobody can prove there isn't. This one could go on forever... I guess it's really all down to our personal decisions and the conclusions we draw ourseleves as to whether we believe there is or there isn't, but we're never going to be able to show it either way until we do or don't meet our God, by which time I'd suspect we won't be coming back to tell anyone about it!

: I understand what you're saying, it's just that I think it's
: strange to take a book of writings thousands of years old as the
: source of truth. Why does something have to be in the Bible for you
: to accept it as a reason to change your attitude or belief?
Firstly, I believe and accept plenty of things that aren't in the Bible. Particularly scientific stuff. The Bible isn't my ONLY exclusive source of believable and acceptable information. As for the age of the bible - I find it amazing that something written so long ago still has (in my opinion) relevance today. And that it was right about stuff. E.G. the order things appeared on earth. Whether you go for evolution or creationism, the order in Genesis appears to be pretty close if not spot on to what we have discovered ourselves. Our current scientific theory also suggests that the universe had a beginning and is expanding (both biblically specified). Would they really have known that 4000 years ago? Maybe, but I'm not too convinced. I'm sure they didn't have a fossil record back then. Nor background radiation probes up in space.

: : I would like to add one thing... I don't know how right or
: wrong this may be to say (theologically), but it's my opinion. I
: have more respect for the beliefs of someone who has thought over
: the entire God thing properly and come to their own conclusion, even
: if that conclusion is that they believe there is no God or in
: something else, than if they just came to church because they
: thought it was the right thing to do and never really bothered to
: think about what they really believe. Just thought I'd throw that
: in.
:
: I appreciate that. I grew up in a moderately religious
: family. Every sunday we went to church and sunday school, and there
: was midweek bible school and vacation bible school and all the other
: assorted activities at your standard American protestant church. I
: know that I enjoyed sunday school at times, I can remember having
: fun with various crafts, but the regular church service always bored
: me.
Yes, I've sat in some pretty boring church services. And some really boring ones. Then there have been ones where I've come out with something. But I think that church is generally hard-going for someone who isn't connected into the "God thing". But sounds like something similar to what I had, apart from my family weren't so interested in church. I'm the only one who is all that bothered about it now.

: Although my parents were (still are) religious, they were
: also very liberal. They were both teachers, too, and were very
: supportive of public education in which I excelled. At some point,
: around first grade, I think, like most young boys I became
: enthralled by dinosaurs. It was about that time that the cognitive
: dissonance started causing me to question things. I passed through
: various phases. Starting with "Genesis is correct", moving through
: the "a day in Genesis just represents millions of years"
: and "Genesis is a metaphor", and ultimately settling on the fairly
: safe belief that "people back then just didn't know what we know
: now". I did all of this pretty much on my own without realizing
: it.
Yeah, this is what I mean about coming to ones own conclusions. As for my thoughts on this stuff... The use of "day" in Genesis is only a bad translation. In the original writings, there was no "day". There wasn't to my awareness any defined length of time for any period of the creation proccess. The slipping in of the word "day" kinda annoys me becuase of the confusin it's caused.

: Then, sometime during second or third grade, my father told me not
: to speak of dinosaurs around my grandparents. As he put it, "some
: people do not believe in dinosaurs." I can still hear my brain
: shifting gears without a clutch. That really bothered me (and still
: does to some extent).
I don't believe in Santa Claus but I don't get upset about people talking about him! <grins> I can imagine you were bothered...

: As I got older, I became less and less interested in church
: activities. I felt like the whole "confirmation" thing in junior
: high was a complete waste of time, and by the time I got to high
: school, I really would've preferred to sleep through sunday mornings
: altogether. My parents thought that I'd like to be part of the
: congregation at the university campus church for our particular
: denomination and so they took me to services there for a few weeks
: before I moved in to the dorm. Once school started I never went
: back.
I think confirmation should only be at people's own choice and never forced or pushed upon them myself. Even unspoken or unwritten pressures can occur to do it in some families.... Also people do need time away from it all to figure out what they really do think etc.

Up until my last year at the university, starting all the way back on that trip to my grandparents' house, I was increasingly troubled by the conflict between what I could see was true with my own eyes and what I was told was true by people I trusted. I was constantly bothered by the "what if it really is all true?" feelings constantly nagging at my utter lack of belief. I finally had enough. I decided there's nothing wrong with not believing in God. Much to my surprise, that little shift in attitude has made my life amazingly happy. No more torment. And I was even more surprised to find a community of like minded people does exist out there.
On the other hand, I have found the things I sought in life through a belief in God and in my eyes there is no conflict. I too have people who do believe what I do, but the norm amongst the people I spend a lot of my time with is to ignore the God thing altogether. What I like is that we can talk about this pretty objectively and (I hope) not feel we're trying to "convert" each other. I don't feel you are, and if you feel I'm trying then I want you to know I'm not. I guess there are like minded people who can stand aside from their beliefs and listen to someone elses story too.

Take care,

Jonathan

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Re: now you're pushing my buttons

Sat, 01 Feb 2003 16:30:34 -0700

Hi,

I've been in scientific field about 20 years. That's why I can say that this is not quite correct. Scientists used that way back to 19th century. Not any more. There are a lot different powerful tools around (e.g. like math models) that allow scientists may be not predict but at list expect some certain result. Besides most modern experiments is conducted after some theoretical work. Most modern experiments require a lot of money (e.g. for equipment and other stuff). No one will give money to scientist to conduct experiment-using way 'Let's do it and see what'll happen'. Believe me, no one. At the same time, it happened before, it happens now and it will happen always, scientists received unpredictable results very often because of very different reasons. I thing, any result is useful no matter is it positive, negative or unexpectable.
I see what you're saying but I still stand by the idea that we come up with a theory and then do experiments to attempt to disprove it. No matter how much theoretical work we do, we still need to the experiments at the end of the day. Math models may be great at predicting outcomes, but they are still and outcome. And yes, I guess any result is useful to some degree - it's just those that don't conform that push the boundaries.

About infidel's story. I think,MPO, there is nothing wrong that lady prayed to God to get the proper result. Every scientist, religious or not, are always hopping/praying to get result that they want. The problem is, if that lady's got expectable result, she's thought it happened because she praid hard and God helped her. This is completely wrong!!! That's why I've never understood how scientist may be religious.
I think a scientist can have religious beliefs. However, you're right - an experiment won't come out with certain results because you ask God to make it do so.

Jonathan

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Re: now you're pushing my buttons

Mon, 03 Feb 2003 06:06:30 -0700

This message was edited by lionb at 2003-2-3 6:44:28

: Hi,
:
: I see what you're saying but I still stand by the idea that we come up with a theory and then do experiments to attempt to disprove it. No matter how much theoretical work we do, we still need to the experiments at the end of the day.
:
That's what experiment is about!!!
:
Math models may be great at predicting outcomes, but they are still and outcome. And yes, I guess any result is useful to some degree - it's just those that don't conform that push the boundaries.
:
I'll tell you more. Very often we get unpredictable results just because math model or theoretical work was based on incorrect interpretation of previous experiment results
:
: About infidel's story. I think,MPO, there is nothing wrong that lady prayed to God to get the proper result. Every scientist, religious or not, are always hopping/praying to get result that they want. The problem is, if that lady's got expectable result, she's thought it happened because she praid hard and God helped her. This is completely wrong!!! That's why I've never understood how scientist may be religious.

: - an experiment won't come out with certain results because you ask God to make it do so.
I hope you know why ...
:

Re: now you're pushing my buttons

Mon, 03 Feb 2003 07:48:09 -0700

: And why shouldn't the idea of creationism be presented as an alternative opinion in schools? Whey the arrogant presumption that evolution is the be-all-and-end-all theory that attempts to answer the question of why we're here? Creationism hasn't been disproved yet, people just prefer eveolution as a theory.

Because it isn't science. That is the key. Creationists want their dogma to replace real science. The first step towards that goal is getting it taught as an "alternative opinion". If you want to talk Creationism in schools then create a theology class. Presenting it in a science class gives it an undue appearance of validitiy.

: Yeah, good point. I think I was way out on that one...just because someone isn't a Christian doesn't mean they won't read or take interest in what is in the bible, even if they don't think it's God's word.

One of the staunchest atheists I know reads from the New Testament daily. In the original Greek!

: If you strip away the supernatural stuff, then it can't be God's word anymore.

I think that's precisely opposite, but then I have a more pantheistic notion of "God", in the moment when I am inclined to believe in such. I think it's the supernatural stuff that distracts Christians from God, not to mention reality

: As for mythology and legends - I think this is a more subjective issue. Your legend might be my truth, if you get me. As for cultural ideosyncracies, I don't know that I can argue the bible is free of those...

A legend may have truths in it, but it is still a legend.

: And nobody can prove there isn't.

The key here is that I haven't claimed there isn't.

: I guess it's really all down to our personal decisions and the conclusions we draw ourseleves as to whether we believe there is or there isn't, but we're never going to be able to show it either way until we do or don't meet our God, by which time I'd suspect we won't be coming back to tell anyone about it!

Bingo!

: Firstly, I believe and accept plenty of things that aren't in the Bible. Particularly scientific stuff. The Bible isn't my ONLY exclusive source of believable and acceptable information.

Pehaps not, but when it comes to the ideas of truth and God and all of that, you basically stated that someone would have to show you how you were misinterpreting the Bible before you would alter your beliefs.

: As for the age of the bible - I find it amazing that something written so long ago still has (in my opinion) relevance today.

Yeah, well the Tao Te Ching was written 500 years before Jesus was even born. Same with Confucius' writings. This gets back to what I said today about commonalities of the human condition.

: And that it was right about stuff. E.G. the order things appeared on earth. Whether you go for evolution or creationism, the order in Genesis appears to be pretty close if not spot on to what we have discovered ourselves.

Is that so? I seem to recall that all plant life appeared before animals, and even before the sun. But then I don't have a bible handy to check.

: Our current scientific theory also suggests that the universe had a beginning and is expanding (both biblically specified).

The Bible just says that God separated the heavens and the earth. Doesn't say the universe is expanding.

: Would they really have known that 4000 years ago? Maybe, but I'm not too convinced.

It's interesting to me when Christians try to show how "accurate" their myths and/or legends are when compared to what we *know* is fact via science. It's as if they understand the difference between beliefs and knowledge, but can't bring themselves to admit that their beliefs may be incorrect. After all, there's little that the jealous God of Abraham detests more than someone who doubts.

: I'm sure they didn't have a fossil record back then.

I heard an interesting theory once that the legends and myths of giants (even the Bible mentions giants) and dragons and other assorted beasts may have arisen when ancient humans stumbled across the occasional dinosaur or mammoth fossil.

: Nor background radiation probes up in space.

Well this all depends on whether to take people like Erik von Daniken (sp?) at face value. God just might be zooming around the universe in a giant spaceship. Ever read the opening chapter or two of Ezekiel? I know people who believe it's a description of said spaceship. What with the blinding flash of light and deafening roar and wings and blah blah blah...

: I think confirmation should only be at people's own choice and never forced or pushed upon them myself. Even unspoken or unwritten pressures can occur to do it in some families.... Also people do need time away from it all to figure out what they really do think etc.

This isn't how our society works, though. We (or most people) don't take a position of letting their children learn and work things out on their own. Humans in general seem to think they have a right and a duty to make their children into good little believers of whatever it is they believe. But if you bring up a case like the Raelians or some other "cult", they feel that childhood indoctrination into the ways of the parents' faith is basically abuse. It's an interesting hypocrisy that I uncovered during my time in Christian chat rooms.

: On the other hand, I have found the things I sought in life through a belief in God and in my eyes there is no conflict. I too have people who do believe what I do, but the norm amongst the people I spend a lot of my time with is to ignore the God thing altogether.

Although I am technically an atheist, I prefer the term "nontheist" because most people have an incorrect idea of what atheist means. Nontheist to me is basically "ignore the God thing altogether." Nontheism is a position where the question of God is irrelevant. This is where I am today. There is a God or there isn't, either way were all stuck here on this planet together and we have to deal with it.

: What I like is that we can talk about this pretty objectively and (I hope) not feel we're trying to "convert" each other. I don't feel you are, and if you feel I'm trying then I want you to know I'm not. I guess there are like minded people who can stand aside from their beliefs and listen to someone elses story too.

I never try to convert anyone. It isn't like I'm offering an attractive alternative. It'd be like me saying "hey, stop what you're believing and join me in believing nothing". How many people would go for a deal like that?

Cheers!

infidel

Re: now you're pushing my buttons

Wed, 05 Feb 2003 14:19:58 -0700

: : - an experiment won't come out with certain results because you ask God to make it do so.

I have always had a problem with prayer.
It seems to me that there is a 50% chance that your prayer will be "answered", and 50% that it isn't "God's will".