: i dont have a problem with different denominations (Baptists, Methodists, Presbyterians)...ive got my own views on whether or not they are right, but in the long run they're all right on the major issue...i dont however believe that Catholics should be considered a denomination of Christianity...i believe it is a completely different religion...i dont think Protestants and Catholics agree on the major issues

You really don't like the Catholics. Seems typical of American Protestantism, though. I do think that the Catholics think too highly of themselves, but it's the American Protestants who tend to be the most bizarre.

: "If Jesus was alive today the last thing he would be is a Christian" - (not sure who said it, but i agree with it...but i guess thats another argument all together, that's more about "second-chair" Christians than Catholics)

Even Martin Luther (without whom there may not be Protestants) said his followers should not name themselves after him because he was no better than worm food once he was dead. And here we are today... not only are there Lutherans, but there are different denominations of Lutherans!

:: OK, so what are you arguing here? It seems to me on one hand you're saying why would a supreme being give a darn about puny mortals, then you're saying that there is no logic in the idea of God not having compassion towards us. Or is this not what you meant?

:thats what it sounds like to me too...

I never said "GOD" shouldn't give a darn about puny mortals. In fact, if GOD = LOVE as you Christians so love to point out, then I would expect GOD to give much more than a darn about us. What I said was that it doesn't make sense that such a being would need adoration by said puny mortals.

:: : Does a painter paint only for bragging rights or to make money?
::
:: Question wasn't addressed to me, but I program for fun and it's my job too, so I program for money...

:i assume youre talkin about artistic painters...and if you are ...thats self-gratification...why paint? most art is done to express oneself..

Art isn't necessarily self gratification. You're trying to force an analogy. You're trying so say that GOD must need glorification from humans because humans need glorification from what they create. Neither your premise nor your conclusion is correct, IMO.

: and just in case if youre talkin about a painter that paints for money...so what...still gets money out of it...hes gettin somethin out of it...thats why we do things..to get something out of it...i dont understand your logic

Doing something to get something out of it is not compassion. Doing something so others get something out of it is.

: correct... "The lust of money is the root of all evil"..but money's a great thing..i wouldnt turn it down

I would, depending on the source.

: i believe in absolutes...sounds like youre saying what's wrong is only wrong if we think its wrong...or like if we dont know its wrong then its not..ignorance...im not sure if thats what youre sayin, but if so i disagree...i believe in absolute truths

I don't believe in absolute truths. I believe in absolute facts. Unfortunately, the only way to know those facts absolutely would be to BE GOD, so the best we can hope for is a very close approximation, however tentative it may be.

:: By rising to life after death?

:not sure if i like the logic behind that...

I don't either. It also reminds me of another problem I have with this part of the story. If a being has the power to come back to life perfectly, of what significance is giving up that life? Life, and the giving up thereof for the benefit of others, is so precious precisely because we don't have a "reset" button. I personally think the "resurrection" part of the story detracts from the nobility of Jesus' life.


infidel

i gotta go outa town...ill be back in a week to get back into this...but just 2 things i wanted to say skimming infidel's post

: :i assume youre talkin about artistic painters...and if you are ...thats self-gratification...why paint? most art is done to express oneself..
:
: Art isn't necessarily self gratification. You're trying to force an analogy. You're trying so say that GOD must need glorification from humans because humans need glorification from what they create. Neither your premise nor your conclusion is correct, IMO.

1. it was your example..i was just running with it


: : correct... "The lust of money is the root of all evil"..but money's a great thing..i wouldnt turn it down
:
: I would, depending on the source.

2. i wouldnt



cyall...ill be back in a week

: 1. it was your example..i was just running with it

Yeah, running away into nonsenseville.

: : : correct... "The lust of money is the root of all evil"..but money's a great thing..i wouldnt turn it down
: :
: : I would, depending on the source.
:
: 2. i wouldnt

Well now you write programs to glorify yourself and you will accept money regardless of the source. Are you sure you're the Christian here?


infidel

: : 1. it was your example..i was just running with it
:
: Yeah, running away into nonsenseville.
:
: : : : correct... "The lust of money is the root of all evil"..but money's a great thing..i wouldnt turn it down
: : :
: : : I would, depending on the source.
: :
: : 2. i wouldnt
:
: Well now you write programs to glorify yourself and you will accept money regardless of the source. Are you sure you're the Christian here?
:
:
: infidel
:
:

Some Christians like to make judgments regarding things like homosexuality, and sorcery or magic, claiming it 'says so in the Bible'.
There are few or no references to the above in the Bible, especially stated by Jesus, but he had many things to say about the evils of money, which these same Christians choose not to consider.

I had a company years ago which had some interest from a company that makes nuclear weapons. I for one was saying that we shouldn't sell to them. After many months with very little revenue, someone half-jokingly asked if that company was still interested. It wasn't, so there was no dilema.

: Some Christians like to make judgments regarding things like homosexuality, and sorcery or magic, claiming it 'says so in the Bible'.
: There are few or no references to the above in the Bible, especially stated by Jesus, but he had many things to say about the evils of money, which these same Christians choose not to consider.

Funny how that works. I knew a guy once in a christian chatroom who insisted that God had blessed his church because they came in one day and found flakes of pure gold scattered about the altar. Have you heard of the Prayer of Jabez thing?

: I had a company years ago which had some interest from a company that makes nuclear weapons. I for one was saying that we shouldn't sell to them. After many months with very little revenue, someone half-jokingly asked if that company was still interested. It wasn't, so there was no dilema.

That's interesting! Cool story.


infidel

: : : 1. it was your example..i was just running with it
: :
: : Yeah, running away into nonsenseville.
: :
: : : : : correct... "The lust of money is the root of all evil"..but money's a great thing..i wouldnt turn it down
: : : :
: : : : I would, depending on the source.
: : :
: : : 2. i wouldnt
: :
: : Well now you write programs to glorify yourself and you will accept money regardless of the source. Are you sure you're the Christian here?
: :
I would have to agree with you there infidel. I definately would not just accept money from anywhere.... what response do you have to that walrus??


: :
: : infidel
: :
: :
:
: Some Christians like to make judgments regarding things like homosexuality, and sorcery or magic, claiming it 'says so in the Bible'.
: There are few or no references to the above in the Bible, especially stated by Jesus, but he had many things to say about the evils of money, which these same Christians choose not to consider.
:
There are actually references to that, not by Jesus himself though. Homosexuality is refered to as sodomy in the Bible and two cities were actually destroyed because they practiced sodomy. (Sodomy is in the dictionary - look it up). There are also verses in the bible that say that people who practice sorcery and witchcraft are wicked. I can find the verses for you if you want.




: I had a company years ago which had some interest from a company that makes nuclear weapons. I for one was saying that we shouldn't sell to them. After many months with very little revenue, someone half-jokingly asked if that company was still interested. It wasn't, so there was no dilema.
:



dodge

: : Some Christians like to make judgments regarding things like homosexuality, and sorcery or magic, claiming it 'says so in the Bible'.
: : There are few or no references to the above in the Bible, especially stated by Jesus, but he had many things to say about the evils of money, which these same Christians choose not to consider.
: :
: There are actually references to that, not by Jesus himself though. Homosexuality is refered to as sodomy in the Bible and two cities were actually destroyed because they practiced sodomy. (Sodomy is in the dictionary - look it up). There are also verses in the bible that say that people who practice sorcery and witchcraft are wicked. I can find the verses for you if you want.

I would like to see a verse from the Bible that refers to Homosexuality as "Sodomy". I always thought Sodomy was a newer term that was coined because of the Sodom and Gomorrah story. The reason(s) that Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed are also debated. Most Christians think it's just about homosexuality, but if that were the case, why didn't GOD destroy Greece under a rain of fire? Not only did Greek men have sex with other men, it was fairly normal for men and boys to "get together".

Sodom and Gomorrah are OLD old testament stories. The kind that are mythical if not legendary. So many of the very earliest stories from the Bible are so clearly legend/myth that anyone who takes them for fact is a fool, IMO. Genesis, Babel, Sodom/Gomorrah, Noah...


infidel

: I would like to see a verse from the Bible that refers to Homosexuality as "Sodomy". I always thought Sodomy was a newer term that was coined because of the Sodom and Gomorrah story. The reason(s) that Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed are also debated. Most Christians think it's just about homosexuality, but if that were the case, why didn't GOD destroy Greece under a rain of fire? Not only did Greek men have sex with other men, it was fairly normal for men and boys to "get together".
:
: Sodom and Gomorrah are OLD old testament stories. The kind that are mythical if not legendary. So many of the very earliest stories from the Bible are so clearly legend/myth that anyone who takes them for fact is a fool, IMO. Genesis, Babel, Sodom/Gomorrah, Noah...
:
:
: infidel
:
:

I also never thought that people assumed that Sodom was destroyed because of homosexual activities. Now I see where people maybe get their strong opinions.
I also agree with point that the Old Testament can't be considered historical fact. In any case these books are the Bible of the Jews, not Christians.
My only point was that Jesus talked only about loving your neighbor and not being trapped in the world of money, putting your desire for money in front of your neighbor's health and welfare. Taking money from the sale of nuclear weapons would be an example of what HE was talking about IMO.

: I also never thought that people assumed that Sodom was destroyed because of homosexual activities. Now I see where people maybe get their strong opinions.

As I recall, Lot was visited by a couple of angels in disguise. The Sodomites insisted that Lot hand his visitors over to them so that they might "know" them ("know" in some cases means sex). Lot refused because of some sort of hospitality rule and instead offered the crowd his daughters. I forget the details exactly, but somehow all of this demonstrated to GOD that Lot was the only righteous man in town, so he was commanded to take his family and flee so the rest of Sodom could be destroyed. This story is the primary reference used by Christians to denounce homosexuality. It's also a convenient way to blame tragedies like 9/11 on homosexuals and anyone else who doesn't denounce them.

: I also agree with point that the Old Testament can't be considered historical fact. In any case these books are the Bible of the Jews, not Christians.

True, but there is no denying the fact that Christianity (as distinguished from the life/teachings of Jesus himself) has Judaic roots. Especially the apocalyptic stuff. My personal opinion is that Christianity is worse off because the writers of the New Testament needed to reconcile the new Jesus stuff with the ancient Judaic stuff.

: My only point was that Jesus talked only about loving your neighbor and not being trapped in the world of money, putting your desire for money in front of your neighbor's health and welfare. Taking money from the sale of nuclear weapons would be an example of what HE was talking about IMO.

It was a superb point, IMO.


infidel

: : I also never thought that people assumed that Sodom was destroyed because of homosexual activities. Now I see where people maybe get their strong opinions.
:
: As I recall, Lot was visited by a couple of angels in disguise. The Sodomites insisted that Lot hand his visitors over to them so that they might "know" them ("know" in some cases means sex). Lot refused because of some sort of hospitality rule and instead offered the crowd his daughters. I forget the details exactly, but somehow all of this demonstrated to GOD that Lot was the only righteous man in town, so he was commanded to take his family and flee so the rest of Sodom could be destroyed. This story is the primary reference used by Christians to denounce homosexuality. It's also a convenient way to blame tragedies like 9/11 on homosexuals and anyone else who doesn't denounce them.

how on earth can ppl use that to blame tragedies?? pls explain...

:
: : I also agree with point that the Old Testament can't be considered historical fact. In any case these books are the Bible of the Jews, not Christians.
:
: True, but there is no denying the fact that Christianity (as distinguished from the life/teachings of Jesus himself) has Judaic roots. Especially the apocalyptic stuff. My personal opinion is that Christianity is worse off because the writers of the New Testament needed to reconcile the new Jesus stuff with the ancient Judaic stuff.
:
: : My only point was that Jesus talked only about loving your neighbor and not being trapped in the world of money, putting your desire for money in front of your neighbor's health and welfare. Taking money from the sale of nuclear weapons would be an example of what HE was talking about IMO.
:
: It was a superb point, IMO.
:
:
: infidel
:
:


dodge

: : It's also a convenient way to blame tragedies like 9/11 on homosexuals and anyone else who doesn't denounce them.
:
: how on earth can ppl use that to blame tragedies?? pls explain...

Very simple. There's actually a number of ways.

First and foremost, any terrible thing that happens to the USA is God's punishment. God punished Sodom and Gomorrah for being wicked and (allegedly) endorsing homosexuality. Therefore bad things are divine retribution for America turning away from God's way.

There's another answer too. One that I think might be more common now than the previous one. It was conceived, I think, by people who want to point out how wicked American culture is, but can't bring themselves to believe that LOVE (God) would crash airplanes into our buildings and kill innocent bystanders as punishment. They say that God has removed our "veil of protection". See, GOD puts up some invisible wall around countries that are good (Christian) but since America has been (allegedly) slipping away from it's "Christian Roots" (secularization, homosexuality, pagans, abortion, etc etc etc), GOD no longer protects us from the evil forces. It's still evil that is harming us, GOD just isn't getting in the way anymore.

So there. That's two different ways "Christians" blame tragedies on homosexuals (and atheists and humanists and pro-choice, etc etc etc).


infidel

: : : It's also a convenient way to blame tragedies like 9/11 on homosexuals and anyone else who doesn't denounce them.
: :
: : how on earth can ppl use that to blame tragedies?? pls explain...
:
: Very simple. There's actually a number of ways.
:
: First and foremost, any terrible thing that happens to the USA is God's punishment. God punished Sodom and Gomorrah for being wicked and (allegedly) endorsing homosexuality. Therefore bad things are divine retribution for America turning away from God's way.
:
: There's another answer too. One that I think might be more common now than the previous one. It was conceived, I think, by people who want to point out how wicked American culture is, but can't bring themselves to believe that LOVE (God) would crash airplanes into our buildings and kill innocent bystanders as punishment. They say that God has removed our "veil of protection". See, GOD puts up some invisible wall around countries that are good (Christian) but since America has been (allegedly) slipping away from it's "Christian Roots" (secularization, homosexuality, pagans, abortion, etc etc etc), GOD no longer protects us from the evil forces. It's still evil that is harming us, GOD just isn't getting in the way anymore.
:
: So there. That's two different ways "Christians" blame tragedies on homosexuals (and atheists and humanists and pro-choice, etc etc etc).

LOL. Well I'd have to say that if christians are using those excuses, they are in a fantasy land and don't understand God at all.


:
: infidel
:
:

dodge

: : : Some Christians like to make judgments regarding things like homosexuality, and sorcery or magic, claiming it 'says so in the Bible'.
: : : There are few or no references to the above in the Bible, especially stated by Jesus, but he had many things to say about the evils of money, which these same Christians choose not to consider.
: : :
: : There are actually references to that, not by Jesus himself though. Homosexuality is refered to as sodomy in the Bible and two cities were actually destroyed because they practiced sodomy. (Sodomy is in the dictionary - look it up). There are also verses in the bible that say that people who practice sorcery and witchcraft are wicked. I can find the verses for you if you want.
:
: I would like to see a verse from the Bible that refers to Homosexuality as "Sodomy". I always thought Sodomy was a newer term that was coined because of the Sodom and Gomorrah story.
Actually yes, that is true...

The reason(s) that Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed are also debated. Most Christians think it's just about homosexuality, but if that were the case, why didn't GOD destroy Greece under a rain of fire? Not only did Greek men have sex with other men, it was fairly normal for men and boys to "get together".
They were destroyed for that. I don't know why God didn't destroy Greece. Obviously he has his reasons for doing things the way he does.


:
: Sodom and Gomorrah are OLD old testament stories. The kind that are mythical if not legendary. So many of the very earliest stories from the Bible are so clearly legend/myth that anyone who takes them for fact is a fool, IMO. Genesis, Babel, Sodom/Gomorrah, Noah...

There is proof that the flood happened, but I'm not going to get into that big argument. It'll take too long.


: infidel
:
:



dodge

: They were destroyed for that. I don't know why God didn't destroy Greece. Obviously he has his reasons for doing things the way he does.

Ah, yes. God works in mysterious ways. So mysterious, in fact, it's as if He isn't there at all. Maybe He was a fan of Greek architecture. If GOD is omnipotent, omnipresent, omnipowerful, why is the application of His absolutes so arbitrary.

: There is proof that the flood happened,

No there isn't.

: but I'm not going to get into that big argument. It'll take too long.

Please do, I'd love to see what you've got. Maybe you have information I've yet to see. But if any part of your position mentions Ron Wyatt or his carnival sideshow of "biblical treasures" then you can forget it. I'm not interested in that fool.


infidel

: : They were destroyed for that. I don't know why God didn't destroy Greece. Obviously he has his reasons for doing things the way he does.
:
: Ah, yes. God works in mysterious ways. So mysterious, in fact, it's as if He isn't there at all. Maybe He was a fan of Greek architecture. If GOD is omnipotent, omnipresent, omnipowerful, why is the application of His absolutes so arbitrary.
:
: : There is proof that the flood happened,
:
: No there isn't.
:
: : but I'm not going to get into that big argument. It'll take too long.
:
: Please do, I'd love to see what you've got. Maybe you have information I've yet to see. But if any part of your position mentions Ron Wyatt or his carnival sideshow of "biblical treasures" then you can forget it. I'm not interested in that fool.
:

I'd like to but I'm very busy at the moment - I have a lot of work on. And I haven't even heard of Ron Wyatt.....
But in the end I think, it doesn't matter what I say, you will disregard it anyway.



: infidel
:
:


dodge

: But in the end I think, it doesn't matter what I say, you will disregard it anyway.

Don't be absurd. I consider everything. Some things I disregard immediately because I've already considered them. However, I won't simply disregard something just because a Christian says it.

I spent nearly two years chatting online with Christians every day. I'm at least familiar with most of the ideas out there.


infidel

: : But in the end I think, it doesn't matter what I say, you will disregard it anyway.
:
: Don't be absurd. I consider everything. Some things I disregard immediately because I've already considered them. However, I won't simply disregard something just because a Christian says it.
:
: I spent nearly two years chatting online with Christians every day. I'm at least familiar with most of the ideas out there.
:
:
: infidel
:
:

sorry, that's not what I meant. What I meant was you have obviously been talking to a lot of christians before, so it doesn't matter what I say, you will have an argument against it.

dodge

: : : : correct... "The lust of money is the root of all evil"..but money's a great thing..i wouldnt turn it down
: : :
: : : I would, depending on the source.
: :
: : 2. i wouldnt
:
: Well now you write programs to glorify yourself and you will accept money regardless of the source. Are you sure you're the Christian here?
:

Agree with Infidel. I care where money comes from and how I'm making it and certainly would not want to profit off something that was immoral etc. Like my company has plenty of adult content work it could do and there's big money in that area, but it is turned down as I believe it's imoral (being the founder has its advantages... ).

Jonathan

-------------------------------------------
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