: Thought I'd stick my paddle in...or try...but few succeed against the Infidel of arguing... j/k

:-P

: Maybe it's because Christians believe that they can talk with God? Prayer in my eyes is a two way thing.

This is another problem I have with Christianity in general and why I seem to prefer buddhism. Instead of quieting, listening, and opening, many Christians seem to be asking, demanding, and petitioning. I don't believe that an omnipotent being could be swayed by the petitions of puny mortals. If GOD knows all, sees all, hears all, and does all, then asking Him to change the plan is an exercise in futility, or arrogance in some cases. I do realize that this isn't descriptive of even a majority of Christians but I have seen it a lot.

: I don't think God wants any of us to feel crap about ourselves, BTW.

This seems to be an odd remnant of the Puritans hanging around American religion.

: I don't really care for denominations within Christianity. It's the same God and bible etc whatever the case...

You can also say that the Christians and the Muslims have "the same God", but in reality they don't. It seems to me that much of Christianity, especially many of the Protestants, and Islam and even Buddhism (etc, etc, etc) is just Bible/Koran/Buddha worship. As "spiritual" as they all claim to be, most humans seem to need something tangible to latch on to and proclaim as the "one true" book/faith/prophet. It's rather interesting from an anthropological standpoint.

: Agree on this one. If there is a God who created us then I'd suggest that the entire way we live our lives would be an act of worship to God...

I don't like the word "worship", but otherwise I completely agree.

: OK, so what are you arguing here? It seems to me on one hand you're saying why would a supreme being give a darn about puny mortals, then you're saying that there is no logic in the idea of God not having compassion towards us. Or is this not what you meant?

See my response to walrus

: Why wouldn't God give us have emotions?

I didn't say He wouldn't, just that I don't believe He did. It's that whole creation/evolution bit that is ancillary to the current thread.

:: How can the eternal die?

: By rising to life after death?

See my response to walrus

: "God so LOVED the world [e.g. us] that He gave His one and only Son..."

This doesn't answer the question of why said Loving GOD would set things up in the first place where an innocent must die to pay for the guilty. Sounds very Pagan to me. That's another interesting thing to me, the overarching progression from pagan roots to monotheism. It's truly amazing how the god of one man and his family became regarded by so many as the one true GOD of the universe.


infidel

Hi,

Been full of cold all week. Went to bed last night nice and early and lay awake for hours. *sighs* So anyway, tonight I have no intention of going to bed early.

: This is another problem I have with Christianity in general and why I seem to prefer buddhism. Instead of quieting, listening, and opening, many Christians seem to be asking, demanding, and petitioning. I don't believe that an omnipotent being could be swayed by the petitions of puny mortals. If GOD knows all, sees all, hears all, and does all, then asking Him to change the plan is an exercise in futility, or arrogance in some cases. I do realize that this isn't descriptive of even a majority of Christians but I have seen it a lot.

As I said, I think prayer is a two way thing. People are just not always "tuned in" or even maybe willing to listen to what God is saying to them, and I think some people do only turn to God when they want something. Not sure that's right - it's kinda like having a friend and using them, so to speak. As for whether it's right to ask God for stuff - I think if God knows that we have a need (rather than just something we want) and we ask for God's help with a situation, He will answer our cry for help.

: : I don't think God wants any of us to feel crap about ourselves,
: : BTW.
: This seems to be an odd remnant of the Puritans hanging around
: American religion.

How do you mean?

: You can also say that the Christians and the Muslims have "the same
: God", but in reality they don't.
No, but personally I believe there is only one God, but at the same time I think it's arrogant to think that other religions have nothing to them. Maybe they are talking with God as in the God I believe in, but not listening to what he is saying etc. Not so well explained, but I think you know what I mean...

: It seems to me that much of Christianity, especially many of the Protestants, and Islam and even Buddhism (etc, etc, etc) is just Bible/Koran/Buddha worship. As "spiritual" as they all claim to be, most humans seem to need something tangible to latch on to and proclaim as the "one true" book/faith/prophet. It's rather interesting from an anthropological standpoint.

I thank God for giving us what I believe is His word, but I don't worship the bible itself, as an idol like!

: : Agree on this one. If there is a God who created us then I'd suggest that the entire way we live our lives would be an act of worship to God...
:
: I don't like the word "worship", but otherwise I completely agree.

Fair enough...I guess it's a jargon word...

: : Why wouldn't God give us have emotions?
:
: I didn't say He wouldn't, just that I don't believe He did. It's that whole creation/evolution bit that is ancillary to the current thread.

Ah, OK. I see what you mean.

: : : How can the eternal die?
: : By rising to life after death?
:
: See my response to walrus

Yes, re-reading it now, I'm not sure I like the logic either...lol

: : "God so LOVED the world [e.g. us] that He gave His one and only Son..."
:
: This doesn't answer the question of why said Loving GOD would set
: things up in the first place where an innocent must die to pay for
: the guilty. Sounds very Pagan to me. That's another interesting
: thing to me, the overarching progression from pagan roots to
: monotheism.
Throughout the old testement people sacrificed all kinds of things to try and make themselves right with God. I get the distinct impression that God didn't want an innocent to die to pay for the guilty, but it's probably the lesser of two evils if it stops other sacrifices and allows people a clear-cut way to gain eternal life.

: It's truly amazing how the god of one man and his family became
: regarded by so many as the one true GOD of the universe.
Is this a reference to the so called Adam and Eve?

Healthy debate indeed.

Jonathan


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: As I said, I think prayer is a two way thing. People are just not always "tuned in" or even maybe willing to listen to what God is saying to them, and I think some people do only turn to God when they want something. Not sure that's right - it's kinda like having a friend and using them, so to speak. As for whether it's right to ask God for stuff - I think if God knows that we have a need (rather than just something we want) and we ask for God's help with a situation, He will answer our cry for help.

I think prayer, if anything, should be more like meditation than communication.

: : : I don't think God wants any of us to feel crap about ourselves,
: : : BTW.
: : This seems to be an odd remnant of the Puritans hanging around
: : American religion.
:
: How do you mean?

I think it was the Puritans. At any rate, some believers have the idea that humans are totally depraved and are generally horrible creatures unworthy of anything. It seems to be psychological games to get people to join your cult. You convince them they have a problem, then offer them a solution. "You are a worthless sinner doomed to Hell, but join our church and God will save you."

: No, but personally I believe there is only one God, but at the same time I think it's arrogant to think that other religions have nothing to them. Maybe they are talking with God as in the God I believe in, but not listening to what he is saying etc. Not so well explained, but I think you know what I mean...

I would say that people would have a clearer vision of GOD if they dropped the cultural trappings ingrained in their religion. Especially the Christians and MOST especially the Muslims... if people got past the "you're an infidel" part they might find common ground. But nooooooooooooooooo, humans are far to tribal for that. "Our" god has to be better than anyone else's god and you have to worship him/her/it our way or you're going to hell.

: I thank God for giving us what I believe is His word, but I don't worship the bible itself, as an idol like!

You'd be surprised how much of American Protestantism has become bible-worship idolatry. I was surprised.

: Throughout the old testement people sacrificed all kinds of things to try and make themselves right with God.

Humans are such bizarre creatures.

: I get the distinct impression that God didn't want an innocent to die to pay for the guilty, but it's probably the lesser of two evils if it stops other sacrifices and allows people a clear-cut way to gain eternal life.

You've got to be kidding me. Clear-cut way to gain eternal life? Eesh.

: : It's truly amazing how the god of one man and his family became
: : regarded by so many as the one true GOD of the universe.
: Is this a reference to the so called Adam and Eve?

No, Abraham. Adam and Eve is purely mythical.


infidel

: : As I said, I think prayer is a two way thing. People are just not always "tuned in" or even maybe willing to listen to what God is saying to them, and I think some people do only turn to God when they want something. Not sure that's right - it's kinda like having a friend and using them, so to speak. As for whether it's right to ask God for stuff - I think if God knows that we have a need (rather than just something we want) and we ask for God's help with a situation, He will answer our cry for help.
:
: I think prayer, if anything, should be more like meditation than communication.
:
: : : : I don't think God wants any of us to feel crap about ourselves,
: : : : BTW.
: : : This seems to be an odd remnant of the Puritans hanging around
: : : American religion.
: :
: : How do you mean?
:
: I think it was the Puritans. At any rate, some believers have the idea that humans are totally depraved and are generally horrible creatures unworthy of anything. It seems to be psychological games to get people to join your cult. You convince them they have a problem, then offer them a solution. "You are a worthless sinner doomed to Hell, but join our church and God will save you."
:
: : No, but personally I believe there is only one God, but at the same time I think it's arrogant to think that other religions have nothing to them. Maybe they are talking with God as in the God I believe in, but not listening to what he is saying etc. Not so well explained, but I think you know what I mean...
:
: I would say that people would have a clearer vision of GOD if they dropped the cultural trappings ingrained in their religion. Especially the Christians and MOST especially the Muslims... if people got past the "you're an infidel" part they might find common ground. But nooooooooooooooooo, humans are far to tribal for that. "Our" god has to be better than anyone else's god and you have to worship him/her/it our way or you're going to hell.

I completely agree. You should be a christian. :P

:
: : I thank God for giving us what I believe is His word, but I don't worship the bible itself, as an idol like!
:
: You'd be surprised how much of American Protestantism has become bible-worship idolatry. I was surprised.
:
: : Throughout the old testement people sacrificed all kinds of things to try and make themselves right with God.
:
: Humans are such bizarre creatures.
:
: : I get the distinct impression that God didn't want an innocent to die to pay for the guilty, but it's probably the lesser of two evils if it stops other sacrifices and allows people a clear-cut way to gain eternal life.
:
: You've got to be kidding me. Clear-cut way to gain eternal life? Eesh.

Eesh??

:
: : : It's truly amazing how the god of one man and his family became
: : : regarded by so many as the one true GOD of the universe.
: : Is this a reference to the so called Adam and Eve?
:
: No, Abraham. Adam and Eve is purely mythical.
:
So how can you believe in Abraham and not Adam and Eve?


: infidel
:
:


dodge

: I completely agree. You should be a christian. :P

It's funny sometimes... when I spent all that time in the Christian chat room, a few of the people I got really close to. I would call them "true" Christians. They sometimes noted that I was more Christian than the Christians. It drove a lot of the others batty. Especially the Pentacostal types. Flaming lunatics those people are.

: : : I get the distinct impression that God didn't want an innocent to die to pay for the guilty, but it's probably the lesser of two evils if it stops other sacrifices and allows people a clear-cut way to gain eternal life.
: :
: : You've got to be kidding me. Clear-cut way to gain eternal life? Eesh.
:
: Eesh??

Would you prefer "egads"?

: : : : It's truly amazing how the god of one man and his family became
: : : : regarded by so many as the one true GOD of the universe.
: : : Is this a reference to the so called Adam and Eve?
: :
: : No, Abraham. Adam and Eve is purely mythical.
: :
: So how can you believe in Abraham and not Adam and Eve?

Two totally different concepts here. Adam and Eve are mythical, Abraham is legendary. Do I believe everything that is written about Abe? No. I accept that there's a good chance someone named Abram/Abraham was the father of Isaac and Ishmael.

See, there's a concept in modern skepticism that evidence should be proportional to the claim. You having never met me personally, if I said to you that my ancestors came from Europe, then you would probably believe me. That claim is so generic and non-spectacular that there isn't really any reason to not believe it is probably true. On the other hand, if I said that my ancestors were created by Extra-terrestrials from the Andromeda Galaxy, you'd think I was either crazy or just being silly. You couldn't prove my claim wrong, you just wouldn't accept it without some serious evidence. That evidence would have to prove everything you know about human ancestry false, or at least incomplete.

Do you see the difference between Abraham and Adam & Eve? It's pretty much the difference between a legend and a myth. It could be that both are true or neither is true. It would only take a little bit of evidence for me to agree that yes, a man named Abraham existed. It would take some significant evidence for me to agree that Adam and Eve existed. Such evidence would have to prove everything we know about evolution false, which is quite a task... and growing more difficult with each passing day.


infidel

:
: Do you see the difference between Abraham and Adam & Eve? It's pretty much the difference between a legend and a myth. It could be that both are true or neither is true. It would only take a little bit of evidence for me to agree that yes, a man named Abraham existed. It would take some significant evidence for me to agree that Adam and Eve existed. Such evidence would have to prove everything we know about evolution false, which is quite a task... and growing more difficult with each passing day.
:
:
: infidel
:
:

Adam and Eve could be legend as well. The story of how they were created, of course, can't be taken literally. But some caveman had to be the first to come to an awareness of the one GOD. Why not someone named Adam somewhere in the middle east?
I think the story represents humans evolving from animals in a state of blissful ignorance, to humans becoming aware of their potential and weaknesses, and trying to determine how and why they were created.

: Adam and Eve could be legend as well. The story of how they were created, of course, can't be taken literally. But some caveman had to be the first to come to an awareness of the one GOD. Why not someone named Adam somewhere in the middle east?

I don't think "legend" applies at all. I also think that saying "some caveman had to be the first to come to an awareness of the one GOD" is a bit of a stretch. I'm not sure if Abraham was the first monotheist. I'm sure there were probably others before him, but I think one would have to have a fairly developed theology before one could arrive at the "one GOD" conclusion. It's an interesting line of thought, though. I suppose too that monotheist just means you worship a single GOD. If I recall, the old testament is full of references to other gods. Of course those are just demons luring people away from the truth. Or something. Blah, it's all so absurd.

: I think the story represents humans evolving from animals in a state of blissful ignorance, to humans becoming aware of their potential and weaknesses, and trying to determine how and why they were created.

Interesting that you refer to evolution and creation in the same sentence like that I personally think the story is just like any other creation myth from any other culture around the world. A story about how things came to be. It's a rather good one too, IMO. What baffles me is how people thousands of years later can believe it as literal truth.


infidel