I think it is fine to stop tormenting each other about differences in religion. However, I think denying that God exists , simply because we haven't 'seen' Him is as silly as denying that our parents had sex simply because we did not see them do it. God exists and there is no denying that. What do you think?

This message was edited by lionb at 2003-8-6 7:41:24

---

: I think it is fine to stop tormenting each other about differences in religion. However, I think denying that God exists , simply because we haven't 'seen' Him is as silly as denying that our parents had sex simply because we did not see them do it. God exists and there is no denying that. What do you think?
:
I have not wanted to participate in religious debate anymore but your example with our parents sex made me laugh. I think that example is not that correct because there is a physical evidence that IT WAS HAPPENED . It's us. But there is no any physical evidence about God. Second, how many Gods exists and which one Christians, Jewish, Muslims? How about polytheism when people believe in bunch of Gods?

: I think it is fine to stop tormenting each other about differences in religion. However, I think denying that God exists , simply because we haven't 'seen' Him is as silly as denying that our parents had sex simply because we did not see them do it.

Ok, a few points here. First, nobody here (that I have seen) has denied that God exists. Second, as Lion said, there is evidence of our parents having sex, namely ourselves. I would change your statement to "denying that God exists is as silly as claiming that God exists." Meaning both statements are based purely on faith.

: God exists and there is no denying that. What do you think?

There's plenty of denying that. It's not as common a position as believing God exists, but there are lots of people who do it. In my case, I simply don't accept the assertion "God exists" as some sort of cosmic axiom. Of course, I would have to ask you to define "God" to give a specific answer.


infidel

hmmm, this is just another topic about religion. And guess what, this aint the first that starts with something like "lets stop debate..." or "think its fine.... etc etc".

WHY do i have the feeling that religious debates here are unstopable?

oh yea, infidel made me laugh AGAIN!!!

"denying that God exists is as silly as claiming that God exists."

go for it infidel!!


: : I think it is fine to stop tormenting each other about differences in religion. However, I think denying that God exists , simply because we haven't 'seen' Him is as silly as denying that our parents had sex simply because we did not see them do it.
:
: Ok, a few points here. First, nobody here (that I have seen) has denied that God exists. Second, as Lion said, there is evidence of our parents having sex, namely ourselves. I would change your statement to "denying that God exists is as silly as claiming that God exists." Meaning both statements are based purely on faith.
:
: : God exists and there is no denying that. What do you think?
:
: There's plenty of denying that. It's not as common a position as believing God exists, but there are lots of people who do it. In my case, I simply don't accept the assertion "God exists" as some sort of cosmic axiom. Of course, I would have to ask you to define "God" to give a specific answer.
:
:
: infidel
:
:




DarQ
url--> http://space.servehttp.com (ssh,ftp,http,stmp,imap etc etc)

This message was edited by GyronMkwebo at 2003-8-8 23:5:43

---

: hmmm, this is just another topic about religion. And guess what, this aint the first that starts with something like "lets stop debate..." or "think its fine.... etc etc".
:
: WHY do i have the feeling that religious debates here are unstopable?
:
: oh yea, infidel made me laugh AGAIN!!!
:
: "denying that God exists is as silly as claiming that God exists."
:
: go for it infidel!!
:
:
: : : I think it is fine to stop tormenting each other about differences in religion. However, I think denying that God exists , simply because we haven't 'seen' Him is as silly as denying that our parents had sex simply because we did not see them do it.
: :
: : Ok, a few points here. First, nobody here (that I have seen) has denied that God exists. Second, as Lion said, there is evidence of our parents having sex, namely ourselves. I would change your statement to "denying that God exists is as silly as claiming that God exists." Meaning both statements are based purely on faith.
: :
: : : God exists and there is no denying that. What do you think?
: :
: : There's plenty of denying that. It's not as common a position as believing God exists, but there are lots of people who do it. In my case, I simply don't accept the assertion "God exists" as some sort of cosmic axiom. Of course, I would have to ask you to define "God" to give a specific answer.
: :
: :
: : infidel
: :
: :
:
:
:
:
: DarQ
: url--> http://space.servehttp.com (ssh,ftp,http,stmp,imap etc etc)
:
: ::Alright guys, let me explain my point about God's existence. I think there is no difference to the God worshipped by christians, Muslims and Traditionalists or any other religion(except Satanists , ofcorse!), the only difference is on the methodology of communicating with Him, but thats beside the point, methodologies are about emotions and to some extent fanaticism and/or fundamentalism.
Lionb's point is that we dont deny that our parents had sex coz we exist, which is the same reason we dont deny that God is there, because we exist!
What i have observed is that those people who deny the existence of God try to clear themselves of responsibilities, and shield themselves from a guilty conscience when they do despicable things which the Bible and the Koran explicitly state to be ungodly and unethical, like prostitution, rape, murder, homosexuality , and a host of other sins i cant state here.
I am not saying thats the reason for all of the people who do not believe in God , but for a large majority, it is. Some things these people do would make one feel the same way one would if one wakes up with a dead rat in his/her mouth, (extremely disgusted and horriffied!).
If everyone beleived in God and followed God's way of life, there would be no wars, no suffering and no diseases to the scale we are currently experiencing.
I am not a religious fanatic, nor am i a paragon of morals and ethics, but of all the things i know to be a CONSTANT, its the existence of God. I am positive that everyone has that feeling in their conscience, which is the reason why nomatter how much they try to deny it, the 'residue' of morals, the knowledge of what is good and what is bad still remains in them.
My parting shot is, its never too late to make the right decision, topping the list of such decisions being turning to God and living within the confines of his ethics and morals.
Mc Gyron ; )

This message was edited by DarQ at 2003-8-10 9:56:58

---

hmmm


: : ::Alright guys, let me explain my point about God's existence. I think there is no difference to the God worshipped by christians, Muslims and Traditionalists or any other religion(except Satanists , ofcorse!), the only difference is on the methodology of communicating with Him, but thats beside the point, methodologies are about emotions and to some extent fanaticism and/or fundamentalism.
: Lionb's point is that we dont deny that our parents had sex coz we exist, which is the same reason we dont deny that God is there, because we exist!
: What i have observed is that those people who deny the existence of God try to clear themselves of responsibilities, and shield themselves from a guilty conscience when they do despicable things which the Bible and the Koran explicitly state to be ungodly and unethical, like prostitution, rape, murder, homosexuality , and a host of other sins i cant state here.
prostitution? homosexuality?? how can those 2 things be sins/unethical??? i think its a sin for just calling that a sin/unethical. where is the freedom of choice? me being gay or going to a babe in amsterdam or leeuwarden does NOT hurt anyone (leeos, consider this hypotheticaly speaking ).

: I am not saying thats the reason for all of the people who do not believe in God , but for a large majority, it is. Some things these people do would make one feel the same way one would if one wakes up with a dead rat in his/her mouth, (extremely disgusted and horriffied!).
: If everyone beleived in God and followed God's way of life, there would be no wars, no suffering and no diseases to the scale we are currently experiencing.
: I am not a religious fanatic, nor am i a paragon of morals and ethics, but of all the things i know to be a CONSTANT, its the existence of God. I am positive that everyone has that feeling in their conscience, which is the reason why nomatter how much they try to deny it, the 'residue' of morals, the knowledge of what is good and what is bad still remains in them.
: My parting shot is, its never too late to make the right decision, topping the list of such decisions being turning to God and living within the confines of his ethics and morals.
i believe that these unethical confines are unethical themselves
: Mc Gyron ; )
:
well, you do sound like a fanatic to me. your way of speaking ("..nomatter how much they try to deny it.." and "its never too late to make the right decision" i agree with the second quote, but that doesnt matter right now) is similar with that of those religious people that try to break in my house with their whole family including 9 months old baby, and overwhelm me with more of those typical lines.

ok, this is just another first impression of you











DarQ
url--> http://space.servehttp.com (ssh,ftp,http,stmp,imap etc etc)

This message was edited by lionb at 2003-8-11 5:9:29

---

hmmm
:
:
: : I am not a religious fanatic,
:
:
: well, you do sound like a fanatic to me.
Same here ...
your way of speaking ("..nomatter how much they try to deny it.." and "its never too late to make the right decision" i agree with the second quote, but that doesnt matter right now) is similar with that of those religious people that try to break in my house with their whole family including 9 months old baby, and overwhelm me with more of those typical lines.

: This message was edited by lionb at 2003-8-11 5:9:29

---

: hmmm
: :
: :
: : : I am not a religious fanatic,
: :
: :
: : well, you do sound like a fanatic to me.
: Same here ...
: your way of speaking ("..nomatter how much they try to deny it.." and "its never too late to make the right decision" i agree with the second quote, but that doesnt matter right now) is similar with that of those religious people that try to break in my house with their whole family including 9 months old baby, and overwhelm me with more of those typical lines.
:
Yep...that's why I have two german shepherd dogs. The puppy is learning it's trade very fast from the BIG beast.

roger that!


: : This message was edited by lionb at 2003-8-11 5:9:29

---

: : hmmm
: : :
: : :
: : : : I am not a religious fanatic,
: : :
: : :
: : : well, you do sound like a fanatic to me.
: : Same here ...
: : your way of speaking ("..nomatter how much they try to deny it.." and "its never too late to make the right decision" i agree with the second quote, but that doesnt matter right now) is similar with that of those religious people that try to break in my house with their whole family including 9 months old baby, and overwhelm me with more of those typical lines.
: :
: Yep...that's why I have two german shepherd dogs. The puppy is learning it's trade very fast from the BIG beast.
:
:
:

DarQ
url--> http://space.servehttp.com (ssh,ftp,http,stmp,imap etc etc)

: : ::Alright guys, let me explain my point about God's existence. I think there is no difference to the God worshipped by christians, Muslims and Traditionalists or any other religion(except Satanists , ofcorse!),

You are certainly entitled to that opinion, but it is simply false. If you speak historically then yes, the Jews, Christians and Muslims all go back to the God of Abraham. What would you say to the Hindus? Or the Asatru (or any other modern pagan)? There are even many muslims and christians who would violently disagree with you. There's certainly a difference between the gods worshipped by Osama bin Laden and Pope John Paul II.

: the only difference is on the methodology of communicating with Him, but thats beside the point,

Not really. Prayer is prayer no matter if you're standing on your head or whatever. The reall differences lie in what people do as prompted by their religion since actions are all that really matters to the rest of us. You could think any weird idea in your head, but until you act on it, it's just a thought in your head.

: Lionb's point is that we dont deny that our parents had sex coz we exist, which is the same reason we dont deny that God is there, because we exist!

That doesn't logically follow. We know that sex leads to babies. So therefore, if there's a baby it logically follows that two people had sex (nevermind modern technological intervention). God doesn't figure into this picture at all.

: What i have observed is that those people who deny the existence of God try to clear themselves of responsibilities, and shield themselves from a guilty conscience when they do despicable things which the Bible and the Koran explicitly state to be ungodly and unethical, like prostitution, rape, murder, homosexuality , and a host of other sins i cant state here.

This is a typical argument posed by believers. What I have observed is that people will behave certain ways regardless of their professed beliefs. People who believe in God try to clear themselves of responsibility, and sheld themselves from from a guilty conscience when they do descpicable things which the Bible et al explicitly state to be ungodly and unethical by simply praying for "forgiveness" from the great vending machine in the sky.

And furthermore, grouping prostitution and homosexuality with murder and rape is nonsensical. The former involve no victims, the latter require victims.

: I am not saying thats the reason for all of the people who do not believe in God , but for a large majority, it is.

And you know this how? Seems to me that believers are always pointing out the fact that the vast majority of humans believe in God (in some form or another). That means the vast majority of people doing bad things are believers.

: Some things these people do would make one feel the same way one would if one wakes up with a dead rat in his/her mouth, (extremely disgusted and horriffied!).

That's an interesting, though bizarre, metaphor.

: If everyone beleived in God and followed God's way of life, there would be no wars, no suffering and no diseases to the scale we are currently experiencing.

You're kidding, right? Have you ever read the Old Testament? Do you know what the Hebrews did to capture "the promised land"? And it's precisely because of Jews, Christians, and Muslims believing in God (remember, you said they were the same God) that the Middle East in re Israel is a perpetual landmine. Diseases are purely biological. It's also interesting to note that the bubonic plague was so devastating in Europe partly because the believers-in-God killed cats, believing them to be witch's demon-familiars, allowing the rat population to explode, carrying the plague-infected parasites with them.

: I am not a religious fanatic, nor am i a paragon of morals and ethics, but of all the things i know to be a CONSTANT, its the existence of God.

I am not a religious person, nor am i a paragon of morals and ethics, but of all the things i know to be a CONSTANT, its the speed of light in a vacuum.

: I am positive that everyone has that feeling in their conscience, which is the reason why nomatter how much they try to deny it, the 'residue' of morals, the knowledge of what is good and what is bad still remains in them.

Maybe it's just because we as humans have the ability to understand what others feel?

: My parting shot is, its never too late to make the right decision, topping the list of such decisions being turning to God and living within the confines of his ethics and morals.

See, I don't need any cosmic vending machine to be a moral or ethical person. I don't need the promise of Heaven nor the threat of Hell to want to do good and lead a moral life.


infidel

: I am not a religious person, nor am i a paragon of morals and
: ethics, but of all the things i know to be a CONSTANT, its the speed
: of light in a vacuum.
Actually there was a suggestion a while back that a few things pointed to it having gradually changed over a period of time. Don't ask for details, it was a year or two back that I read about it.



Jonathan


###
for(74,117,115,116){$::a.=chr};(($_.='qwertyui')&&
(tr/yuiqwert/her anot/))for($::b);for($::c){$_.=$^X;
/(p.{2}l)/;$_=$1}$::b=~/(..)$/;print("$::a$::b $::c hack$1.");

: : I am not a religious person, nor am i a paragon of morals and
: : ethics, but of all the things i know to be a CONSTANT, its the speed
: : of light in a vacuum.
: Actually there was a suggestion a while back that a few things pointed to it having gradually changed over a period of time. Don't ask for details, it was a year or two back that I read about it.

I've heard various rumors of that. Most of the time, though, its from creationist wackos who are trying to reverse-engineer the big bang to fit their 6000 year timescale. Would be interested in any details if you happen across them.


infidel

: : : I am not a religious person, nor am i a paragon of morals and
: : : ethics, but of all the things i know to be a CONSTANT, its the speed
: : : of light in a vacuum.
: : Actually there was a suggestion a while back that a few things
: : pointed to it having gradually changed over a period of time.
: : Don't ask for details, it was a year or two back that I read about
: : it.
:
: I've heard various rumors of that. Most of the time, though, its
: from creationist wackos who are trying to reverse-engineer the big
: bang to fit their 6000 year timescale. Would be interested in any
: details if you happen across them.
6000 year timescale? Uh...d'oh. I don't remember who proposed it, but somebody said something about "if it has changed we might be able to time travel". I don't know it was a creationist theory... If I find more info I'll pass it over.

Jonathan

###
for(74,117,115,116){$::a.=chr};(($_.='qwertyui')&&
(tr/yuiqwert/her anot/))for($::b);for($::c){$_.=$^X;
/(p.{2}l)/;$_=$1}$::b=~/(..)$/;print("$::a$::b $::c hack$1.");

This message was edited by lionb at 2003-8-11 10:35:41

---

::Alright guys, let me explain my point about God's existence. I think there is no difference to the God worshipped by christians, Muslims and Traditionalists or any other religion(except Satanists , ofcorse!), the only difference is on the methodology of communicating with Him, but thats beside the point, methodologies are about emotions and to some extent fanaticism and/or fundamentalism.
: Lionb's point is that we dont deny that our parents had sex coz we exist, which is the same reason we dont deny that God is there, because we exist!
Absolutely not!!! Accordung to bible, Tora, Quaran God created ONLY two persons male and female. He did not create different races/nationalities or different looking people.So we all has to look like Adam and Eva but we don't. We are so different! Eropean, African, Asian. Even people from the same race looks very different. Like
Euoropean people from North do not look like people from South. May I ask you why?
: What i have observed is that those people who deny the existence of God try to clear themselves of responsibilities, and shield themselves from a guilty conscience when they do despicable things which the Bible and the Koran explicitly state to be ungodly and unethical, like prostitution, rape, murder, homosexuality , and a host of other sins i cant state here.
: I am not saying thats the reason for all of the people who do not believe in God , but for a large majority, it is. Some things these people do would make one feel the same way one would if one wakes up with a dead rat in his/her mouth, (extremely disgusted and horriffied!).
: If everyone beleived in God and followed God's way of life, there would be no wars, no suffering and no diseases to the scale we are currently experiencing.
: I am not a religious fanatic, nor am i a paragon of morals and ethics, but of all the things i know to be a CONSTANT, its the existence of God. I am positive that everyone has that feeling in their conscience, which is the reason why nomatter how much they try to deny it, the 'residue' of morals, the knowledge of what is good and what is bad still remains in them.
: My parting shot is, its never too late to make the right decision, topping the list of such decisions being turning to God and living within the confines of his ethics and morals.
: Mc Gyron ; )
:
:
:

: : Lionb's point is that we dont deny that our parents had sex coz we
: : exist, which is the same reason we dont deny that God is there,
: : because we exist!
: Absolutely not!!! Accordung to bible, Tora, Quaran God created ONLY
: two persons male and female. He did not create different
: races/nationalities or different looking people.So we all has to
: look like Adam and Eva but we don't. We are so different! Eropean,
: African, Asian. Even people from the same race looks very different.
: Like Euoropean people from North do not look like people from South.
: May I ask you why?
Yeah, yeah, you didn't ask me. Though the answer is probably something to do with evolution. Whether the human species came to be through evolution is another point altogether, but I'd certainly say that within a given species evolution takes place through the mechanism of natural selection. Just look at the peppered moth, was it, that during the industrial revolution ended up changing color to be better camoflauged.

I'm not sure people evolved to look different for the purpose of camoflauge (I'm sure I've spelt that word wrong) though!

Jonathan

###
for(74,117,115,116){$::a.=chr};(($_.='qwertyui')&&
(tr/yuiqwert/her anot/))for($::b);for($::c){$_.=$^X;
/(p.{2}l)/;$_=$1}$::b=~/(..)$/;print("$::a$::b $::c hack$1.");

: I'm not sure people evolved to look different for the purpose of camoflauge (I'm sure I've spelt that word wrong) though!

No, but do you think it's coincidence that all the fair-skinned people trace back to very northern lands?


infidel

This message was edited by lionb at 2003-8-11 13:9:27

---

This message was edited by lionb at 2003-8-11 13:8:24

---

: : I'm not sure people evolved to look different for the purpose of camoflauge (I'm sure I've spelt that word wrong) though!
:
: No, but do you think it's coincidence that all the fair-skinned people trace back to very northern lands?
:
:
: infidel
:
:
All of them? I do not think so. There must be some logical, may be physiological, explanation. When I was College student I heard of some physiological speculation about hormone melatonin which plays some role in skin pigmatation. There was some hypothesis that hormone produces dark skin pigment that reflect or absorbe ultraviolet. That's why people on the south, where a lot of sunshine and ultraviolet has darker slin. I believe this hypothesis is stil just hypothesis and there is no real scientific evidence but it sounds very logical. At the same time it stil doesn't expalain why people in Africa has much darker skin than people who live in middle east even though they have almost the same number of sunshine days

: All of them? I do not think so. There must be some logical, may be physiological, explanation. When I was College student I heard of some physiological speculation about hormone melatonin which plays some role in skin pigmatation. There was some hypothesis that hormone produces dark skin pigment that reflect or absorbe ultraviolet. That's why people on the south, where a lot of sunshine and ultraviolet has darker slin. I believe this hypothesis is stil just hypothesis and there is no real scientific evidence but it sounds very logical. At the same time it stil doesn't expalain why people in Africa has much darker skin than people who live in middle east even though they have almost the same number of sunshine days

Certainly its hypothesis, or maybe even a weakly supported theory, and there are certainly many factors involved, but if you trace back geneologically, all the fair-skinned "races" come from the North.

At any rate, it's a very intersesting question.


infidel

: : All of them? I do not think so. There must be some logical, may be physiological, explanation. When I was College student I heard of some physiological speculation about hormone melatonin which plays some role in skin pigmatation. There was some hypothesis that hormone produces dark skin pigment that reflect or absorbe ultraviolet. That's why people on the south, where a lot of sunshine and ultraviolet has darker slin. I believe this hypothesis is stil just hypothesis and there is no real scientific evidence but it sounds very logical. At the same time it stil doesn't expalain why people in Africa has much darker skin than people who live in middle east even though they have almost the same number of sunshine days
:
: Certainly its hypothesis, or maybe even a weakly supported theory, and there are certainly many factors involved, but if you trace back geneologically, all the fair-skinned "races" come from the North.
:
: At any rate, it's a very intersesting question.
:
:
: infidel
:
It is interesting. You are right about fair-skinned "races" come. But this is mostly about Old World, for example Europe and Africa. At the mean time, people who live in both North and South America have no differences in skin color. Indian from both Canada and Equatorial part of South America have the same light colored skin. Moreover, skin of people from Southern South America (relatively not far from South Pole) is very light. Or other example. People from my ethnic group. Some of us are blonde with blue eyes and very "white" skin and some brunet with dark eyes and relatively "dark" skin. I am mixed. I am blonde with blue eyes but my skin is not that "white". Of course there must be involved a lot of different factors like genetic, mixed marriges and others.

how does this work?

when i was born, my hair was jet black. Then as a child it was blond for many years.. and now it is dark brown.

: how does this work?
:
: when i was born, my hair was jet black. Then as a child it was blond for many years.. and now it is dark brown.
:
So you do not want to be blond ... I am just wondering, what kind of haur paint do you use?
Seriously, I do not know. Color of my hair changed but it was not that dramatical changes. My wife's hair used to be red when she was child, now it's dark blond. Actually, changing of hair pigmentation during life cicle is well known facts (I don't know explanation). At the same time, skin color never changed. Well, sometimes old people have pigments spot on their skin but it's not real change of skin color

: people who live in both North and South America have no differences in skin color.

Native Americans do vary a little, but since they're all descendants of Asians who migrated relatively recently in history, it makes sense that they're less diverse.


infidel

quick of you to remove the extra post.

no colouring needed. i don't think blond haor would suit me. might look a bit gay

: quick of you to remove the extra post.
:
: no colouring needed. i don't think blond haor would suit me. might look a bit gay
:
I don't know why this additional post appeared. I am blond but I hope I do not look like a gay. No matter what colors of our hair are, I am very happy, that we switched discussion from religion to hair/skin color

: : quick of you to remove the extra post.
: :
: : no colouring needed. i don't think blond haor would suit me. might look a bit gay
: :
: I don't know why this additional post appeared. I am blond but I hope I do not look like a gay. No matter what colors of our hair are, I am very happy, that we switched discussion from religion to hair/skin color
:
One of my mates turned 30 a couple of years ago.. he died his hair bleach blond. I just remember his girlfriend demanding that he washed it out as she thought he looked homosexual. Really made me laugh.

: : : quick of you to remove the extra post.
: : :
: : : no colouring needed. i don't think blond haor would suit me. might look a bit gay
: : :
: : I don't know why this additional post appeared. I am blond but I hope I do not look like a gay. No matter what colors of our hair are, I am very happy, that we switched discussion from religion to hair/skin color
: :
: One of my mates turned 30 a couple of years ago.. he died his hair bleach blond. I just remember his girlfriend demanding that he washed it out as she thought he looked homosexual. Really made me laugh.
:
I hope you are not going to switch discussion to homosexuality subject? I do not care about that kind of people but not interested in that kind of conversation

No, not at all. it was the only relevent thing i could think of.

Anyway. I have a question. This is something that my mates and I discussed.

If you was on a flight and all of a sudden it was taken over by terrorists.. what would you do? There are 3 of them with small blades.