I wanted to share with you the level of coding knowledge instructors now have to offer at colleges nation-wide. This angered me in so many ways it is insane. This is my friend on ICQ:

[CMF]-Sc(+)pE: next year i HAVE to take Visual Basic
[CMF]-Sc(+)pE: it's mandatory
[CMF]-Sc(+)pE: soooo *edited*
[CMF]-Sc(+)pE: they replaced the c++ class with VB
[CMF]-Sc(+)pE: they said they were replacing it because "C++ is outdated"
[CMF]-Sc(+)pE: thats wut they said when i was choosing classes

Now I am not Bill Gates or anything, but Basic can NOT stand up to C++ in terms of overall performance. Correct me if I am wrong, but I am betting they went from a DOS C++ class to a Windoze VisualBasic class, not realizing that C++ can also compile for Windoze, whether it's visual or not. Just wanted to share this with my fellow coders who actually code and don't just point and click.

-Sephiroth

You know, I hate when people say "C++ offers better performance than VB". It's a stupid statement. By performance you mean what? Applications run faster? You develop applications faster? The user can do the task more efficiently? Faster? No! Performance, which comes from the ability of performing task, is always misused in our industry.

Too different languages, each one with it's own purpose. I would be glad if they changed the c++ courses in my school and had vb only. Why? Not because of me, but because it's VERY hard for other students to see how these black&white (console) applications (which is what's mostly done in colleges), fittin in the whole computer programs picture.

: You know, I hate when people say "C++ offers better performance than VB".

Firstoff, VB can't do the stuff C++ can. Basic is a more primitive language than C++ or ASM, but it is very easy to learn. I learned on Atari Basic way back in the 80's. However, it is limited in whatit can and cannot do. Granted, there is more support for it now, but since it is a primitive language, you can NOT expect the same performance from it thatyou can from C/C++ or ASM. ASM is the best one I know of, even above C/C++. The big plus with Basic is how easy it is to code, whether visually or with notepad.

: Too different languages, each one with it's own purpose. I would be glad if they changed the c++ courses in my school and had vb only. Why? Not because of me, but because it's VERY hard for other students to see how these black&white (console) applications (which is what's mostly done in colleges), fittin in the whole computer programs picture.
:

You just re-stated my point. The college professors are not up to par. They are teaching C++, but console apps are obsolete for the most part. How hard would it be for an instructor to spend a day learning WinMain() and the VERY few things you need to learn to do Windoze C++? Instead they go the easy route, revert to a primitive language which can't do much, but the students will learn easily, and then on top of that they go to the "visual" version where the students don't even code much. It's sad when somebody like myself can actually do more in notepad than a college instructor can with visual <whatever>.
-Sephiroth

The performance issue is less of an issue these days. If a system needs 10x the power, well, so what really, the hardware companies are falling over each other to give us machines that programmers really can't use to their full potential, so along comes a VB programmer and knocks something together that works, does the job, and he did it in 2 days.

Our system puts up the next screen in 1 millisecond, the VB system, in 100ms, so what? It is faster than the user can type.

Time to market is the real issue these days, /for that kind of app/....

There are all sorts of app....



Med venlig hilsen,

Adrian...

True Adrian, but what about games? I am the only one I have met online thatcan run UT2K3 or Unreal II with max details in 1280x1024x32 and not have it ataround 1-5fps. In applications like word-processors, use whateverthe heck you want! When it comes to what REALLY stresses a CPU, like games or mega-server apps, use something that will give you the most bang for your buck. After all, who goes off and buys a Lamborghini and runs 87 octane in it?

-Sephiroth

: True Adrian, but what about games? I am the only one I have met online thatcan run UT2K3 or Unreal II with max details in 1280x1024x32 and not have it ataround 1-5fps. In applications like word-processors, use whateverthe heck you want! When it comes to what REALLY stresses a CPU, like games or mega-server apps, use something that will give you the most bang for your buck. After all, who goes off and buys a Lamborghini and runs 87 octane in it?
:
: -Sephiroth
:
:

I think you should read the last two line of my message again, /or/ read between them.....!

(In case it's necessary - I am agreeing with you, but explaining why many education establishments turn to things like VB).

P.S. Not here for next 7-8 days.


Med venlig hilsen,

Adrian...

Yeah I know. It just really pizzes me off because to do really good games like the new ones out here now, you really do need to know C/C++ (possibly Pascal? *shudder*), and if I go to college and want to enhance my C/C++ skills, I'll be taught whatI learned back in the 80's, with the addition of Windoze functions to make the apps work in the OS. Also, it ticks me off to know that if Joe Blow goes to college for three months and gets a degree in Visual X, even though I can code with plain Notepad better than Joe, because all Joe knows how to do is point-and-click, and possibly type in fields in the IDE, he has a better shot at a job. My code may be twice as efficient, and can do twice as much, but because it may take me a day longer or because he has a better piece of paper (or a newer one), he wins the job.

Anyways, be safe while you're gone. We should still be here when ya' get back, shy of nuclear fallout :p!

-Sephiroth

Sephiroth,
Nice name. Anyways I just decided to go to colledge and get a degree in Computer Science. The couse does not require you to take Viusal Basic. It offers it along with Java and Colbal and several other classes that are not stricly C/C++. Also the colledge I'm going to go to is the University of Akron. In Akron, Ohio. The courses I'm required to take include Datastructures and Algorithms I and II. There is also a class on operating systems and assembly classes too. These are required here. Visual Basic is not required. Thank the good lord for that. I hate Visual Basic. It is so limited in the things it can do. How do you create your own window border in VB? How to you get VB to run as quick as C++ or C or ASM? You can't. As for those with really fast computers like myself, I don't target machines like these. I target machines like my Father-in law's or my Mother's they have slower computers 200MHz to 350MHz. I also have a Pentium 100MHz and a 80486 DX2 based computer for such a purpose. VB cannot compete in terms of the 'performace' a program needs to be effective and compete on a older machine. If I go to click on a drop down menu I want to see it now not after 200 to 500 ms have passed by. VB just adds way too much overhead. I even use a 80486 based machine as a firewall running Linux. If I wanted to setup a proxy server I'd need NT so my server did not need to be super fast to keep up as a firewall plus all of the security software would be written with C or C++, otherwise it would not keep up with the demands of a server. I understand that most of the population is not as smart as it used to be. Hell that is why Visual Basic is so popular. People want to program and create a program now. Not in a week with C/C++. They also don't want to take the time to learn a powerful programming language, so they take the easy way out the Visual Basic way out. These are the people that love 'eye candy', the same kind of people that drool when the click there mouse. Anyways I'm done ranting for now.

---

When it came down to it I dropped everything and ran.
-Ramza Final Fantasy Tactics

Oh man I was waiting for somebody else who felt the way I did to surface, thanks for the post! Now if only there was a way to convince the big companies to not do anything visually. Then the coding market would be heaven for people like us again.

-Sephiroth

Actually Universities like the one I'll be attending typically keep ASM, C, and C++ as the fore-front of programming. They only offer classes like VB to give you a look at that or to supply an easy class for an elective. The University is one of the top 25 in the Nation, and the science and engineering was ranked in the top 5. I'd say they know what they are doing. Good luck with your server.

---

When it came down to it I dropped everything and ran.
-Ramza Final Fantasy Tactics

This message was edited by xbob at 2003-5-25 7:12:24

---

: I wanted to share with you the level of coding knowledge instructors now have to offer at colleges nation-wide. This angered me in so many ways it is insane. This is my friend on ICQ:
:

: [CMF]-Sc(+)pE: next year i HAVE to take Visual Basic
: [CMF]-Sc(+)pE: it's mandatory
: [CMF]-Sc(+)pE: soooo *edited*
: [CMF]-Sc(+)pE: they replaced the c++ class with VB
: [CMF]-Sc(+)pE: they said they were replacing it because "C++ is outdated"
: [CMF]-Sc(+)pE: thats wut they said when i was choosing classes
: 

: Now I am not Bill Gates or anything, but Basic can NOT stand up to C++ in terms of overall performance. Correct me if I am wrong, but I am betting they went from a DOS C++ class to a Windoze VisualBasic class, not realizing that C++ can also compile for Windoze, whether it's visual or not. Just wanted to share this with my fellow coders who actually code and don't just point and click.
:
: -Sephiroth
:

Now I am not Bill Gates or anything, but Basic can NOT stand up to C++ in terms of overall performance
True, which probably is why you never see a game developer studio seeking VB programmers, for example ;)
However, I do believe that VB can be used for many applications where speed isn't that important (otherwise it would have left the market long ago).

: True, which probably is why you never see a game developer studio seeking VB programmers, for example ;)
: However, I do believe that VB can be used for many applications where speed isn't that important (otherwise it would have left the marked long ago).
: [/blue]

True, but still, I feel Visual anything should be used as a learning tool to teach new coders what stuff does. I mean, if you point and click and make a window, and then look at the actual source, you can begin to udnerstand whatever language it is you're doing. Me myself, I don't see ANY instance where an app that is not coded halfway decent should be used.

For instance, you know when Valve got the Quake II engine and made Half-Life? Originally HL was playable on a P133 which is still printed on the bottom of the boxes they sell. However, this is a plain lie. In version 1.1.0.0 they ported the regular C/C++ to Visual, and the requirements quadrupled. Where before I played it on a P2/233 with 128mb ram and a 16mb Voodoo3/2000, I had to play it on a friend's P2/450 to make it run with any kind of framerate, even in hardware modes. I could run it on the 233, but below 640x480 in resolution and with all the details turned off so the game pretty much looked like Doom with 3D models. They ruined what was well on it's way to becoming my favorite game. That is why anybody that codes Visual without doing any hand-coding to their works, has no f*(#ing business calling themselves a programmer. They're not programmers, they're a$$es who saturate the market and keep real coders like myself or others who know how to code out of a job. I hope every last one of those people dies a horrible, horrible death. It maybe extreme, but people like that have kept me out of the job I love and that Visual BS has ruined one of my favorite games. Oh and I forgot to mention, after it went Visual and the dynamic memory allocation stuff was broken, they went to static, and everybody and his brother wrote a trainer or hack for the game, so now 75% of the online community cheats.

Sorry if thatwas long-winded and a bit harsh, but there isn't a soul alive who can contradict what I've said. I'm NOT angry at people who use Visual stuff and then hand-code parts of the app as well, because they obviously know SOMETHING about coding and can improve the code that the Visual app was just generating. I'm peeved with those who can only point and click, and possibly type menu names and entries, who probably don't know anything more about a computer than how to turn it on and start Visual Whatever, and possibly shut it down. I know of many people who just hit the power button and never use shutdown. Ah well let me shut my mouth before I wind up getting into another area.

-Sephiroth

This message was edited by xbob at 2003-5-25 7:9:59

---

: : True, which probably is why you never see a game developer studio seeking VB programmers, for example ;)
: : However, I do believe that VB can be used for many applications where speed isn't that important (otherwise it would have left the market long ago).
: : [/blue]
:
: True, but still, I feel Visual anything should be used as a learning tool to teach new coders what stuff does. I mean, if you point and click and make a window, and then look at the actual source, you can begin to udnerstand whatever language it is you're doing. Me myself, I don't see ANY instance where an app that is not coded halfway decent should be used.
:
: For instance, you know when Valve got the Quake II engine and made Half-Life? Originally HL was playable on a P133 which is still printed on the bottom of the boxes they sell. However, this is a plain lie. In version 1.1.0.0 they ported the regular C/C++ to Visual, and the requirements quadrupled. Where before I played it on a P2/233 with 128mb ram and a 16mb Voodoo3/2000, I had to play it on a friend's P2/450 to make it run with any kind of framerate, even in hardware modes. I could run it on the 233, but below 640x480 in resolution and with all the details turned off so the game pretty much looked like Doom with 3D models. They ruined what was well on it's way to becoming my favorite game. That is why anybody that codes Visual without doing any hand-coding to their works, has no f*(#ing business calling themselves a programmer. They're not programmers, they're a$$es who saturate the market and keep real coders like myself or others who know how to code out of a job. I hope every last one of those people dies a horrible, horrible death. It maybe extreme, but people like that have kept me out of the job I love and that Visual BS has ruined one of my favorite games. Oh and I forgot to mention, after it went Visual and the dynamic memory allocation stuff was broken, they went to static, and everybody and his brother wrote a trainer or hack for the game, so now 75% of the online community cheats.
:
: Sorry if thatwas long-winded and a bit harsh, but there isn't a soul alive who can contradict what I've said. I'm NOT angry at people who use Visual stuff and then hand-code parts of the app as well, because they obviously know SOMETHING about coding and can improve the code that the Visual app was just generating. I'm peeved with those who can only point and click, and possibly type menu names and entries, who probably don't know anything more about a computer than how to turn it on and start Visual Whatever, and possibly shut it down. I know of many people who just hit the power button and never use shutdown. Ah well let me shut my mouth before I wind up getting into another area.
:
: -Sephiroth
:
:


We seem to share the same opinion on Visual products. For instance, at my first job as a programmer I wrote a mail distribution system using Java. I used Visual J++ since that was the IDE installed on the system when I began working there. However, even though the program didn't have any obviouis errors it crashed after running on the server for some time without returning any useable error information. So, after hours of debugging I still couldn't find any errors and decided to convert the project to Sun JDK, and, vola; no problems nor crashing despite that fact that no functionality had been altered ;)

The advantage of using Visual products, however, is that you can learn them in a week or so, and thus they decrease developing time and expenses. Still, unless I could code my Visual programs from scratch using NotePad or some other text editor and link the LIBs ans OBJs manually, I wouldn't concider myself a programmer (take that! *giggles*) ;)

:unless I could code my Visual programs from scratch using NotePad or some other text editor and link the LIBs ans OBJs manually, I wouldn't concider myself a programmer (take that! *giggles*) ;)

LIES!!! ALL LIES AND ANTI MICROSOFT PROPAGANDA!!!

Cmon now, how can you possibly code anything with an 8 spaces tab?

unless I could code my Visual programs from scratch using NotePad or some other text editor and link the LIBs ans OBJs manually, I wouldn't concider myself a programmer (take that! *giggles*) ;)

LIES!!! ALL LIES AND ANTI MICROSOFT PROPAGANDA!!!

First of all, I am quite fond of the Microsoft Corporation and have actually learned programming the Win32 API from a book written by a programmer at Microsoft. However, I do have bad experience with Visual products and think they tend to complicate things where they should actually help the developer. Also, I do not like that they by default make the code larger than necessary by including all sorts of debug and help information, and even unstable in some cases.

Finally, in my opinion a programmer is a person that creates programs in the traditional way (ie. actually writes every command in the program), and people who build applications in other ways (for example by using a DragAndDrop system like DELPHI or the GUI functions provided by Visual IDEs) are program designers


Cmon now, how can you possibly code anything with an 8 spaces tab?

When I wrote NotePad it was simply to reference a program that everybody knows in that genre. I use Crimson Editor myself (that enables the user to customize the tab size ;)

It is hard not to agree with a statement, that MFC with its 'wizards' went a "little" overboard, not to mention that these 'wizards' do not work properly.

On the other hand, to 'code' everything by hand is also a little bit off. I think, the good coding should be somewhere in the middle.

Currently, for example, I am developing the new IDE for coding Win32 programs in Assembly and I have a lot of automation done for that purpose. Of course, I am not going overboard - not as it is done with MFC, but I have a fair amount of code coded for you by the IDE, but so, what. I made it optional, so people who like to code by hand will be happy, at the same time, people who need fast development can click a couple of times and get the MDI application skeleton coded for them, so they can add more functionality and get their program designed faster.

In my opinion - better be in the middle and flexible, instead of going on some edge - one side or the other.

Cheers, everyone!

It is hard not to agree with a statement, that MFC with its 'wizards' went a "little" overboard, not to mention that these 'wizards' do not work properly.

On the other hand, to 'code' everything by hand is also a little bit off. I think, the good coding should be somewhere in the middle.

Currently, for example, I am developing the new IDE for coding Win32 programs in Assembly and I have a lot of automation done for that purpose. Of course, I am not going overboard - not as it is done with MFC, but I have a fair amount of code coded for you by the IDE, but so, what. I made it optional, so people who like to code by hand will be happy, at the same time, people who need fast development can click a couple of times and get the MDI application skeleton coded for them, so they can add more functionality and get their program designed faster.

In my opinion - better be in the middle and flexible, instead of going on some edge - one side or the other.

Cheers, everyone!


I follow your statement and as a matter of fact I often use a homemade application skeleton when coding Java apps. However, the real issue is whether or not you understand what is going on and have both insight and a feeling about your source code and, as a result, is capable of coding the entire program from scratch. And one thing is certain; if you start out programming using a Visual IDE you will not obtain it.

Personally, the only reason I use a skeleton is that I have coded so much Java in the past 4 years that I have achieved a comprehensive feeling about the entire API and therefore find it annoying to write all the fundamentals every time I want to make a progam. But for Win32 C++ apps I write everything starting in a blank text file because I know there are still many phenomenons I can learn more about.

For the same reason, I will not discard the possibility that some day I will start using an IDE (probably CodeWarrior or Intel's C++ compiler) when I reach the same state as I have done with Java

Hey I like where this is going! I also get bored writing my WinMain() function every time over and over again, as well as other basics that are needed, such as the functions to deal with GL windows. I think I'll make a static template with just those functions and just copy it into my new app directory and then fill in the code myself. However, VISUAL SUCKS! :p

-Sephiroth

: Hey I like where this is going! I also get bored writing my WinMain() function every time over and over again, as well as other basics that are needed, such as the functions to deal with GL windows. I think I'll make a static template with just those functions and just copy it into my new app directory and then fill in the code myself. However, VISUAL SUCKS! :p
:
: -Sephiroth
:
:
I don't appreciate all the knocking Visual Development is getting by the recent replies. I have been using Visual Basic for 4 years and there is not anything i have come across that could not be accomplished with VB that C, C++ or any other Old MS-DOS originating language can do. Visual is the new thing, and you guys are just gonna have to deal with it:p

: This message was edited by xbob at 2003-5-25 7:12:24

---

: : I wanted to share with you the level of coding knowledge instructors now have to offer at colleges nation-wide. This angered me in so many ways it is insane. This is my friend on ICQ:
: :

: : [CMF]-Sc(+)pE: next year i HAVE to take Visual Basic
: : [CMF]-Sc(+)pE: it's mandatory
: : [CMF]-Sc(+)pE: soooo *edited*
: : [CMF]-Sc(+)pE: they replaced the c++ class with VB
: : [CMF]-Sc(+)pE: they said they were replacing it because "C++ is outdated"
: : [CMF]-Sc(+)pE: thats wut they said when i was choosing classes
: : 

: : Now I am not Bill Gates or anything, but Basic can NOT stand up to C++ in terms of overall performance. Correct me if I am wrong, but I am betting they went from a DOS C++ class to a Windoze VisualBasic class, not realizing that C++ can also compile for Windoze, whether it's visual or not. Just wanted to share this with my fellow coders who actually code and don't just point and click.
: :
: : -Sephiroth
: :
:
: Now I am not Bill Gates or anything, but Basic can NOT stand up to C++ in terms of overall performance
: True, which probably is why you never see a game developer studio seeking VB programmers, for example ;)
: However, I do believe that VB can be used for many applications where speed isn't that important (otherwise it would have left the market long ago).
:
:
:
:
Alright, after reading the many replies that knock Visual Basic, i would like someone to tell me something that C, C++, C#, Visual C++ or any other language can do that the new Visual Basic.NET cannot do. If you do manage to find something, email me at MeHaveMessage@hotmail.com I will be more than happy to prove you wrong:p

: : This message was edited by xbob at 2003-5-25 7:12:24

---

: : : I wanted to share with you the level of coding knowledge instructors now have to offer at colleges nation-wide. This angered me in so many ways it is insane. This is my friend on ICQ:
: : :

: : : [CMF]-Sc(+)pE: next year i HAVE to take Visual Basic
: : : [CMF]-Sc(+)pE: it's mandatory
: : : [CMF]-Sc(+)pE: soooo *edited*
: : : [CMF]-Sc(+)pE: they replaced the c++ class with VB
: : : [CMF]-Sc(+)pE: they said they were replacing it because "C++ is outdated"
: : : [CMF]-Sc(+)pE: thats wut they said when i was choosing classes
: : : 

: : : Now I am not Bill Gates or anything, but Basic can NOT stand up to C++ in terms of overall performance. Correct me if I am wrong, but I am betting they went from a DOS C++ class to a Windoze VisualBasic class, not realizing that C++ can also compile for Windoze, whether it's visual or not. Just wanted to share this with my fellow coders who actually code and don't just point and click.
: : :
: : : -Sephiroth
: : :
: :
: : Now I am not Bill Gates or anything, but Basic can NOT stand up to C++ in terms of overall performance
: : True, which probably is why you never see a game developer studio seeking VB programmers, for example ;)
: : However, I do believe that VB can be used for many applications where speed isn't that important (otherwise it would have left the market long ago).
: :
: :
: :
: :
: Alright, after reading the many replies that knock Visual Basic, i would like someone to tell me something that C, C++, C#, Visual C++ or any other language can do that the new Visual Basic.NET cannot do. If you do manage to find something, email me at MeHaveMessage@hotmail.com I will be more than happy to prove you wrong:p
:
I am almost sure you will get some challenges to complete, but, I think they were talking about the performance too. If you search or parse the large file for some text - I doubt that VB can do it faster than VC++. Suppose, you have a program, where you have to wait until file is processed in 20 sec (VB) against 2 sec (VC++). If we talking commercial here - the product MUST be written in VC++ or your software house goes under... simple logic... performance matters. On the other hand the time of development - VB beats C++ COMPLETELY! But again, you can code a program fast, but will it sell good and you make some profit to saty afloat?.. - pure philosophy - choose the development environment accordingly. You need some bookstore database FAST - nothing better then VB with MS-Access, but if you need the text or image processor - C++ all the way.

: : This message was edited by xbob at 2003-5-25 7:12:24

---

: : : I wanted to share with you the level of coding knowledge instructors now have to offer at colleges nation-wide. This angered me in so many ways it is insane. This is my friend on ICQ:
: : :

: : : [CMF]-Sc(+)pE: next year i HAVE to take Visual Basic
: : : [CMF]-Sc(+)pE: it's mandatory
: : : [CMF]-Sc(+)pE: soooo *edited*
: : : [CMF]-Sc(+)pE: they replaced the c++ class with VB
: : : [CMF]-Sc(+)pE: they said they were replacing it because "C++ is outdated"
: : : [CMF]-Sc(+)pE: thats wut they said when i was choosing classes
: : : 

: : : Now I am not Bill Gates or anything, but Basic can NOT stand up to C++ in terms of overall performance. Correct me if I am wrong, but I am betting they went from a DOS C++ class to a Windoze VisualBasic class, not realizing that C++ can also compile for Windoze, whether it's visual or not. Just wanted to share this with my fellow coders who actually code and don't just point and click.
: : :
: : : -Sephiroth
: : :
: :
: : Now I am not Bill Gates or anything, but Basic can NOT stand up to C++ in terms of overall performance
: : True, which probably is why you never see a game developer studio seeking VB programmers, for example ;)
: : However, I do believe that VB can be used for many applications where speed isn't that important (otherwise it would have left the market long ago).
: :
: :
: :
: :
: Alright, after reading the many replies that knock Visual Basic, i would like someone to tell me something that C, C++, C#, Visual C++ or any other language can do that the new Visual Basic.NET cannot do. If you do manage to find something, email me at MeHaveMessage@hotmail.com I will be more than happy to prove you wrong:p
:


I think we are misunderstanding each other in this debate...

We have to distinguish between programmers and software-designers, since they represent two completely different worlds and should not be compared.

As for software-designing VB, .NET, J++, VisualStudio and other RAD-IDEs are without any doubt THE best tools for several reasons:

1. You can create applications enormously fast.

2. They are incredibly user-friendly and will guide you through any kind of problem that occurs in the development process.

3. It takes no more than a week or two to learn how to create applications with these tools, no matter your prior knowledge.

4. They will put so much debug/help information in you .exe, and link so much pre-compiled code into your program, that if some error occurs, you will be able to spot it in no time.

Programmers, on the other hand, usually don't care much about how long time it takes to create the program, as long as the result is fast, stable and intelligently implemented; which is utterly impossible when using RAD-IDEs.

So please add "...from a software-designers point of view", when suggesting that C++ is outdated!

This message was edited by adrianxw at 2003-10-8 2:51:6

---

That is one hell of a bump of an ancient thread there - smells like a troll.

Med venlig hilsen,

Adrian...

Did anybody email him some challenges. I did and he could not prove me wrong!

---

When it came down to it I dropped everything and ran.
-Ramza Final Fantasy Tactics